OOAK Table Tennis Forum

As a modern defender, ask any current specialist and the answer to your question which rubber to use on your backhand will be: long pips. These specialists may be wrong.
Yes, I am contrary. It is in my genes. However, I will attempt to at least partially substantiate my contrariety.
The usual argument backing up the use of long pips instead of anti goes like this. Anti is slick, it just reverses spin, and so it is completely predictable and hence harmless, and it is particularly vulnerable to no-spin balls; but long pips can make spin on their own, so you are able to vary the spin returning it, and you can kill no-spin at your leasure.
This argument applies to frictionless anti and to LP which do have friction. About 50 years ago this might have been in accord with reality, more or less. But today there are very few frictionless anti around anymore; most of them have some kind of grip, and a few even combine grip of top-sheet with soft sponges, which - if used expertly - theoretically makes them at least the equals of modern LPs. At that, a fair number of LPs boasts of having qualities similar to frictionless pips and is by no means suitable to aggressively return no-spin, especially when used in OX.
I have played with a lot of different LPs, some grippier than others, and I have played with just one anti (so far), Juic Neo Anti. I can only say that (according to my opponents) with the anti I am able to produce at least as heavy backspin as with any LP, including Feint Long III; that it is a cinch to kill no-spin balls with Neo Anti; and that varying spin in chops with it is a very simple matter of chopping harder or more gently. At that, to me the feeling of control I have using it, surpasses everything I have ever used before.
Still, an anti being what it is, viz, a continuous sheet of rubber, it will be more sensitive to incoming spin than a pimpled rubber, because its contact-surface is substantially larger and nothing you do can make this go away. Pips, however, can be frictionless on top and have friction on their sides, or the reverse (which is no great use to anybody over an anti); an accomplished player can make use of this, by using just the tips in light contact and also the sides in heavy contact. Or so it is said. If this is true, why do professional choppers use thick soft sponges underneath their pips? They may have a light touch if they want to, but against fast balls they won't be able to keep the ball out of the sponge, nor off the sides of their pips; effectively, they might as well use anti, then. For what would be the difference compared to using an anti with a relatively stiff top-sheet on a soft sponge? And suppose the anti had a soft sponge and a soft top-sheet as well, would that not be even better than any LP? Rumour has it that the best modern defender ever, Joo Se Hyuk, has changed from grippy TSP Curl P1R to slick Tibhar Grass D-tecs (both on thick sponge). Isn't that a move towards anti, in fact?
Anti's, as a rule, offer far better control over incoming spin than do LPs. Anti's, with the exception of dr. Neubauers fast ones, are able to control speed better than any LP with sponge. Grippy anti's are able to vary spin as well as any LP. So how can they be less suitable to modern defense?
Perhaps hearsay, gossip, and prejudice have influenced play more than a cool calculation of the possibilities of rubbers... Or have they?

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Without opponent, no match.

My first taste of Anti rubber was Bty Super Anti in a 1.5mm sponge. I played with the rubber in 1980 and stopped in 1988. After a brief layoff of TT I again went back to Anti, but could not find a replacement for BTY that had a good 1.5mm sponge. I, like you tried the Neos anti and found hitting and control was easy and could again flip to a dead FH loop off chops that just died right on the table *( what a site to see ) I liked the idea that Neos did have some friction when you wanted it, and less when you did not. I flip flopped like a republican and went to 755 in ox, and 1.0 as well as some Medium pips. Nothing as far as control worked like the ANti did. Chopping from mid distance was really good. I now used Talon as my BH weapon of choice...but always yearning for that Plop sound of Anti coming to a dead stop. I often used the hid the racket near the hip, or keep flipping before serve to confused whom I was playing. Changing from a hard serve with spin to a flip no spin dead heap. FUN FUN.
I am thinking about setting up one blade to try out with Anti. I am using LP right now and want to work on that type of game *( Dark SIDE ). Besides Neos. what other ANti do you think would be cool to try out?

Peace GIG
former follower of *LOOP TO KILL*

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*IT IS NOT LOGICAL TO PLAY WITH LONG PIPS*
THOUGHT OF THE WEEK: If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.


New blade set-up... Nittaku Monophonic with Dawie 388d-1 ox and Big slam max ( really like this one) down to FH rubber selections--I like it better than talon
flaired handle and 90 grams

Kees, I don't think you're wrong, especially at the amateur/recreational level. Based of what I've seen from my ongoing study of YouTube TT videos, it seems like there are a lot of anti choppers in Eastern Europe.

GIG, you can still get Butterfly Super Anti with 1.5mm sponge overseas (contra.de, for example). Butterfly's North American distributor stupidly doesn't import a lot of the thinner sponge versions available. This is my pet peeve with Butterfly.

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The MNNB Blog has had some pretty amazing stuff lately. Just click this text to check it out. | My OOAK Interview
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My whole set-up costs less than a sheet of Butterfly Dignics

Michiganbob worte:On recommendation of Antipip I'm going to try out Tibhar Ellen Def, black, 1.5 mm...

But seriously: why? I know I did the same, in search of something that would sort of naturally mold itself to my abilities... ugh... doesn't work that way . I did pick up a lot of interesting experiences, though, and a better understanding (I think ) of the game as such. It's that understanding, such as it is, that is pointing me towards anti now, even though I'm doing relatively well with LP (Dawei 388d).

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Without opponent, no match.

MNNB wrote:
Very interesting! Choppers, right? Long distance? Not blockers? For I do think LP may be best for blocking close to the table. It seems to me the true potential of anti only will come out when there is time to make the sponge work combined with the top-sheet. In blocking the sponge will work separately (taking off speed) of the top-sheet (reversing spin), so there is no synergy, or that is my guess. Perhaps with very hard or very dead or very thin sponge anti will replicate the effect of OX LP. But synergy will only be there in (mid)long defense.

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Without opponent, no match.

i will be interested to hear your findings of ellen def 1.5,not a popular rubber.i tried the 2.0 sponge and it is the slowest thing i have ever tried,it is also possible to make backspin with an inverted type push which i didn`t expect,it was a while ago and my game with lp is much more refined now it might be interesting to revisit the ellen def when the tendonitis in my wrist gets better

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Tsp Black Balsa 3.0 Tenergy 05 1.9 388d ox black

Hi Kees,
Thanks for a great post.
I do not post about my use of anti very much because of the general talk on this forum about how much better pips are than anti. However, my time in China shows anti can be very good even at higher levels also. Much has to do with how it is used.
I use anti on my Seemiller bat. I normally loop on both backhand and forhand side, but I have the choice, (Instant choice) of inverted or anti on the backhand side by just rolling the forarm.
I use BTY Super Anti. I use it for serve return. On soft contacts like pushing or passive blocks, it gives lots of reversal. Short, spinny serves can be pushed, flipped, lifted or even hit. People say just give fast serves to the anti. With Seemiller grip, I still have the inverted option. I do not use anti with shakehands because this is not an option.
I played many good pip players in China. If we got in an backhand to backhand pushing war, the anti caused all sorts of havoc. Talk about a chess match! LOL
My biggest use of anti though, is blocking hard loops to take loopers out of thier game. One or two good counter loops and then a passive block with the anti. The better the loop, the more backspin goes back. Driving a looper in and out is a good tactic.
I have toyed with 755, Pogo, Dr Evil and a few others. None of them give me as much control as the Super anti. For the way I use anti, the slower the better.

I still think that for chopping off the table that LP cannot be beat. The most important shot in the game is the loop and nothing chops the loop like LP. I do think anti has better attacking possibilities and may be better close to the table that LP in many instances. IMO and all that jazz.

Vanjr wrote: It's true an anti doesn't chop the loop like an LP, but I am far from convinced that this means the anti is less effective in chopping than the LP.
The quality of a chop depends on the combination of three factors, a I see it.
First factor: the amount of incoming spin. Anti offers better control here - it is easier to place well and to keep the ball low, which makes the return more dangerous.
Second factor: the way how reversal and adding spin because of the grip of the rubber combine. I don't see why the grippyness of pips should add more than the grippyness of an anti, especially as anti offers greater surface-contact, hence better friction. Perhaps pips reverse better because they offer less surface-contact and hence less friction, and if so this may make up for their lesser ability to add spin. So all in all, anti and LP should be rather alike in this second respect.
Third factor: the way a rubber combines the first two factors. As LPs tend to combine lower overall control with their ability to return massive backspin, and anti's combine great overall control with it, anti's would come out better than LPs.
But reality is probably more complicated than this. For instance, the fact that anti's aren't used as much as LPs and so are less well understood in general may mean the full capacity of anti's is rarely used. That would explain the current general opinion that anti's aren't as good for chopping as LPs...
So it would be well if more players posted about anti, Hookshot! Come on!

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Without opponent, no match.

With Seemiller grip, I can chop on the backhand side very well with the anti. And I do not have to twiddle to do it. Just roll the forarm. It feels like a natural stroke to me. Hard loops go back low and just drop over. I do not get to use it much as my training partner will not play against it for more than a few minutes. He hates it. I don't use it much anyway as I try to hold the table all the time.
I do use it to help coach students how to loop chops. It is fun to chop but in a match, I only use it in a pinch.
My partner has very spinny loops. If he hits one in the net, the ball just keeps charging the net again and again. We have had him loop to me, I chop from way back, he lets the ball hit and we watch what it does. If it hits the rug (rug floor where we play) it will shoot back towards me. There is tons of backspin on the ball.
I do not have any interest in trying different anti's but I think I would like to try one with a thinner sponge. All the antis I have used have had Max sponge.

I thought of a good experiment to do next week. (college is closed this week)
I bought a box of old bats at a garage sale. There are two Sportcraft in there with 755 one side and DHS Dipper on the other. The Dipper is hard as a rock. It has no friction even if you press a ball hard on it and pull. It feel like teflon. I will do the chop thing and see if it has more or less backspin than the anti. I am sure it will have almost 100% spin continuation. If the anti shows more backspin than the Dipper, that means the anti is making some backspin.
I could also compare to the 755.

A good number of players use antispin on their forehands to chop. Dwruck just posted a video of one a few hours ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNZ3czSHD6Q

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The MNNB Blog has had some pretty amazing stuff lately. Just click this text to check it out. | My OOAK Interview
Table Tennis Video Links: itTV | laola1.tv | ttbl | fftt | Challenger Series | mnnb-tv

My whole set-up costs less than a sheet of Butterfly Dignics

Hookshot wrote: Would it resemble, in fact, a chop with penhold grip? My personal experience with that, is that it is easier than with shakehand grip to swing relaxed and thus get good brushing speed; that would possibly account at least in part for the heavy chop you get. Then, Butterfly Super Anti is said to be almost frictionless, so it will reverse heavy topspin very well into heavy backspin. A propos that: Conventional opinion seems to be that this is a bad thing, because it would also mean that you wouldn´t be able to deal with low or no spin. But my guess is that this opinion is based on the tacit assumption that slick anti´s behave like frictionless LPs; this leaves the sponges of the anti's out of it, which seems wrong to me, as these sponges are very special and have a distinct influence. But anyway you seem to make the combination with the anti work by making consistently intelligent choices about when to use anti and when inverted. That would be consistent with what Sun Jianfei said about using anti (with twiddling patterns) even on the highest level (viewtopic.php?f=17&t=17604). In fact, using LP for this, you have to make similar choices, twiddle too, and/or run around your backhand a lot. All in all, then, this too seems to support the idea that anti has as much potential as LP in modern defence (but offers better control). I wonder if this idea will hold up when more players share their experiences with anti, here. I would like to think so, but I'm not sure yet...

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Without opponent, no match.

I've got to hearts. The more people play anti, the more opponents get used to it. However, the more people play anti, the more developments by the industry may be expected.

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Equipment: Dr Neubauer Firewall+ - Butterfly Tenergy 05 - Spinlab Vortex 2.3 (red sponge)

MNNB: I like this one! Very nice crisp chops on both wings by the lady! And she is using her combination very cleverly, too. Any idea which anti she is using in red?

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Without opponent, no match.