OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Is there any anti that is suitable for a chopping bh game ?
I have a fast blade - but would like to be able to chop on the bh side.

Dont be shy

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[color=#FF0000]Setup 1: Joola Chen Weixing - Tenergy 05 2.1 red - Tibhar Grass Dtechs Black 0,5
Current rating : 1825.

It's quite easy to chop with almost any anti... it tend to take a lot of the pace off, and return very little spin. AS you progress in level, you'll have to do more than return it though... like focus on controlling and varying the pace and better placement, or you can become a sitting duck to a good power looper.

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If you are looking for a rubber that is slow like anti, but very good for chopping, (HIGH SPIN CHOPPING!) Cole Ely sells an Air Zero Sponge when put under a grippy topsheet that really slows the ball down and gives a lot of control and amazing spin!

Anti is slower than defensive inverted rubbers like Tackiness Chop and Stiga Chop & Drive. But this Air Zero Sponge is also slower than these defensive inverted rubbers. I like it!

http://www.colestt.com/

Tibhar Ellen Def is an anti designed for chopping away from the table. In 1.5 mm (black) it is capable of producing backspin on its own, and if used like inverted (bringing the ball into the sponge when chopping, then accellerate) it is capable of turning incoming topspin into heavy backspin. It is also possible to vary the amount of backspin that you return, by using more or less wrist; and varying the speed (even if this anti is really slow) by varying the angle.

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Without opponent, no match.

in a word NO!

Persuasive argument! I have used Tibhar Ellen Def for two years, chopping - I guess I must have missed something...

Seriously, several antis will work fine for chopping, but need techniques and tactics that are different from those used for LPs or SPs.
Anti, in the classic way, is used for defending safely, absorbing the attack of the opponent, while setting up an opportunity for counter-attack. I don't think any antispin rubber will match the best chopping LPs (TSP Curl P1R, Butterfly Feint Long III) when it comes to producing backspin, but you don't need that huge amount of backspin if you adapt your style to what an anti can do.
Also, no currently allowed LP will match the reversal some antispin rubbers are capable of - using those intelligently against loopers, you may give them bigger problems than you would with LP.
So if you are looking for an anti that will allow defending safely against topspin attack, there are several options, to be used in different styles with different tactics. The same is true for LPs, and SPs. You have to know first what you are capable of, and what you really like to do when playing table tennis, and then you have to find the equipment that fits it - which is different for different people.

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Without opponent, no match.

I suspect vanjr was responding to Tenergy05fx, not to you Kees. It was a very persuasive argument though, I agree!

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Ellen def is the slowest rubber I have seen, slower than Feint 3 and tacky chop and will make backspin,it does have some grip allows you to get under the ball a little without popping up like some lp`s do,the 1.5 sponge is better for cutting of the ball,I used a red rubber btw

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Tsp Black Balsa 3.0 Tenergy 05 1.9 388d ox black

Hard to disagree with Kees-one of my favorite posters on OOAK-indeed maybe the best one on the board, but I was referring to chopping with anti.

My data is limited. When I tried chopping with 804 from friendship I had ZERO success. I have also never seen a good chopper with anti in tournament play and we have almost no anti players in my club. I am unaware of any top level chopping anti players. IMO LP are THE ultimate chopping racket covering. I have seen good inverted choppers and there is the occasional top level SP chopper.

So my answer of NO. IMO anti is primarily a blocking rubber. I am not saying it is impossible to chop "good" with it, just that in my experience, albeit not extensive, I would say that chopping is not easy with anti and it would be the last rubber I would recommend to someone who asked me what they could use to chop with.



Let the rebuttals begin!

I think you can retrieve well enough with anti and if someone is a good chopper/retriever I'm sure they can reach a solid standard chopping with it (if Joo used it he would still be a very strong player). I think the critical question for anti at a higher level is how much backspin you can get on the ball. I have played against half a dozen or so different antis (used by decent choppers) and the trouble is that they are just too easy to play against. The backspin is reasonable but it is never bitingly heavy like it can be with LP and the end result is that it is too easy too tee off against for a strong looper. I haven't played against this Ellen rubber and maybe it is something markedly different to other antis but if can't generate as much backspin as LP then I think an ambitious chopper should simply use LP (or SP or inverted if that suits their game).

It is quite true that Friendship 804 is not very suitable for chopping; it is good for keeping the ball low, but it doesn't reverse spin, just stops it, and the amount of spin it is capable of producing by itself is very limited.
It is also true that pro defenders don't use anti; in fact very few defenders ever did - long pimples and short pimples existed before anti was developed and anti never outdid either with respect to producing backspin in chops - what it did was, first, offer the possibility to outwit the opponent with twiddling (opponents could not distinguish between anti and normal inverted and so were deluded before the two-colour rule came) and, second, offer much higher control for a solid retriever's defense.
I also doubt that any pro, in our time, would consider consistently using anti for defense away from the table - even if it has been done by some (there is a post in this section somewhere about a former member of the chinese national men's team who used 804 for a while; and recurrent rumours state that Joo has used anti occasionally).
None of this logically indicates that anti is per se suitable or unsuitable for chopping, it only indicates that is unfashionable. For at least part of an explanation of that fact, please have a look at the topmost post in this section.

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Without opponent, no match.

It won't produce as much backspin as Curl P1R on thick sponge, but it comes close enough (in my view) for solid defense, and offers much higher control; paired with a strong forehand topspin attack it works, and for many players it may work even a bit better than LP because of the higher control - you don't have to worry about your backhand defense anymore, so instead you can concentrate on opportunities for forehand attack.
Besides, I have serious doubts about the value of or need for extra-heavy backspin for solid defensive tactics. If extra-heavy backspin was crucial, every pro would use inverted instead of pips, because inverted will always make more backspin. I think you "just" have to produce enough backspin to keep your opponent from hitting a winner - anything else can be retrieved. Bringing the ball back safely will sooner or later provide you with an opportunity for counter-attack - sooner if you can cause problems for your opponent by placing the ball where it is uncomfortable for him, or vary the spin in a way he cannot read well enough. And placement and variation are excellent with Tibhar Ellen Def.
Then there is something else: if you chop consistently making so much backspin that it troubles your opponent, he will start to push or drop, and you will likely end up playing a boring short game at which the attacker may very well be better than you, as he is used to playing close to the table and has the reflexes needed to turn the attack mode on. Antipip, an ex forum member with great and deep knowledge of the anti game, warned me - when we discussed tactics - against making extremely heavy backspin all the time, and advised me to instead give the opponent chances to loop the ball, for it is much easier and more effective to counter-attack re-looping a loop when you're away from the table than it is to come in fast to attack a push or dropshot, and just pushing a push back won't win you points much; furthermore, it is much easier to spot and successfully counter-attack a drop-shot that is coming after the opponent has looped a few, than when he is pushing or dropping all the time. Generally, when defending you don't win a game when you lock it down - you need it to be open so you can be creative.

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Without opponent, no match.

I played antipip - one time forum member - quite a few times and he chopped away from the table with anti spin and could get varying amounts of spin and float on his returns and he could step in and hit with it when he wanted so in my experience of playing against it, anti can be good for chopping if you use it right.

However, you mention you have a fast blade. Antipip didn't - he used a very slow blade (can't remember what it was) and the anti spin he used was the old Toni Hold antipin which was very slow (can't remember sponge thickness either) - infact the slower the setup the better he seemed to like it.

This makes me think maybe your fast blade and the anti spin would be working against each other which defeats the purpose of having them.

I'd say the question is not whether you can chop well with anti, but whether there is any special
advantage to learning to do it.

The scarcity of anti choppers tends to point in the direction of "no advantage".
You can learn to chop with anything, including a plain wooden 2by4, but I think this example of Eric Boggan, (No. 18 in the world in 1983), likely shows the best use of anti, where the advantage comes from the return being done quickly at short range.

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Great video fleetwood999! I had not seen that before!

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