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PostPosted: 25 Sep 2015, 17:59 
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Background: I have been using LP for some 5 years but last Christmas I changed to SP and early this spring to MP, because I wanted more grip in defence (because of plastic ball) and more attacking possibilities. I am pretty happy with my setup for the moment, using 1,5 mm TSP Millitall II on a Joo Se Hyuk. Millitall is a rather controlled and a little grippy MP with a sponge very smiliar to Spectol's. It is easy to defend (chop) with but a little fast. It is rather easy to attack with, especially when the rubber is fresh (the grip wears off after a few months and then it is better for chopping but not for attacking). Blocking is ok but there is no pip effect unless I manage to get a real flat block, which is rather difficult. Slow spinny loops are difficult to block or attack, and also difficult to chop (but not at all impossible). On the bright side is its ability to generate spin on pushes and chops, attacking back spin and chopping both with and without heavy back spin from distance.

A few weeks ago I entered a one day training camp with Hans Thalin (Fabian Åkerström's coach) andLArs Borg (owner of Japsko). Hans urged me to try Anti (that is what he used most of his active time). So I did. And it was actually kind of fun. I tried a very weird anti called Giant Dragon Soft Anti with a hard top sheet with very slight grip and a soft and very slow dampening sponge (1,5 mm). I also tried Yasaka Anti Power, but that felt a little too fast and a little heavy (only available in 2,0 mm). But the top sheed of it felt really nice. I glued the GD Soft Anti to my spare Joo Se Hyuk, which is heavier, harder and faster than my ordinary blade. And I tried it a little more at the camp and then next session (a week ago) for some 10 minutes again. Then last weekend our league started and I used my main setup. But I had gotten the itch :( ....

Last night I tried it a little more, I played a few minutes of a few drills with it, changing between my ordinary setup and the anti. And then we ended by playing some sets. I filmed those and the first two were with my ordinary set up (1-10 minutes) and then after some warm up with the anti I played two sets with that setup (14-23 minutes) and then a last set with my main setup (25-30 minutes). In the second part of set 4 I begin to understand how to use the anti. I remembered having seen how AA use it for attacks and I tried that stroke (at 20:00) against back spin and it worked out nice (even though this is not a slick anti).



Now I would like some input :angel: . If I were to give anti a real go (should I do that?), what anti would suit me the best for the style I play? Tibhar Ellen def? Juic Neo Anti? Or perhaps the one I already got? I need something very slow but still ok to attack with, and a little grip is wanted I think. It should be good for recieving serves, especially fast and spinny ones. I play close to the table attacking all I can (or blocking) and when I can't attack I back away and chop. I am ok with twiddeling. I can also BH loop a little with my inverted. I can FH chop with pips or anti. Suggestions?

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PostPosted: 25 Sep 2015, 22:33 
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Def-attack wrote:
In the second part of set 4 I begin to understand how to use the anti. I remembered having seen how AA use it for attacks and I tried that stroke (at 20:00) against back spin and it worked out nice (even though this is not a slick anti).


Indeed you seem to master that stroke, however it looks like it wasn't very disturbing for your opponent. But it could be a way to open your looping (or smashing, cause there isn't much spin on your opponent's return) attacks. Or you could try to place it more difficult for opponent.

Overall, I can't see the logic in your quest. You went from LP to SP and MP to be able to give more backspin, to have more grip and attacking possibilities and now you're going more or less the opposite direction.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with trying :lol:

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PostPosted: 25 Sep 2015, 23:47 
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Pipsy wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
In the second part of set 4 I begin to understand how to use the anti. I remembered having seen how AA use it for attacks and I tried that stroke (at 20:00) against back spin and it worked out nice (even though this is not a slick anti).


Indeed you seem to master that stroke, however it looks like it wasn't very disturbing for your opponent. But it could be a way to open your looping (or smashing, cause there isn't much spin on your opponent's return) attacks. Or you could try to place it more difficult for opponent.

Overall, I can't see the logic in your quest. You went from LP to SP and MP to be able to give more backspin, to have more grip and attacking possibilities and now you're going more or less the opposite direction.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with trying :lol:


Well, those were the first times I tried that stroke, I had not done that in practice before, so I am sure it can be performed a lot better with some practice.

Actually, my opponent thought that stroke was very disturbing, but it might have been more that it was unexpected. And yes, that was a very good way to get me into attacking game. But I need to make that stroke longer and place it to his body or elbow to set up for my attack.

About spin... Yes there is a contradiction. Not much spin at all from that anti except for when chopping hard (opponents spin). But what I want with my BH is something safe, easy to return serves, good for chopping and also rather good for attacking and some blocking. I was hoping my MP would be good for attacking and blocking but it was more difficult to do that than I had expected. Also, I notices my pips changed a lot over the period of 4 months and that I did not like. Those are the main reasons I am even considering anti. But I am sure there must be a more appropriate anti for my style?

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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2015, 01:35 
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Pipsy wrote:
Overall, I can't see the logic in your quest. You went from LP to SP and MP to be able to give more backspin, to have more grip and attacking possibilities and now you're going more or less the opposite direction.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with trying :lol:


I don't think DA is going the opposite way. He's still looking for a grippy anti (although you might say anti=LP, but this depends on which anti, I guess).

Def-attack wrote:
Now I would like some input :angel: . If I were to give anti a real go (should I do that?), what anti would suit me the best for the style I play? Tibhar Ellen def? Juic Neo Anti? Or perhaps the one I already got? I need something very slow but still ok to attack with, and a little grip is wanted I think. It should be good for recieving serves, especially fast and spinny ones. I play close to the table attacking all I can (or blocking) and when I can't attack I back away and chop. I am ok with twiddeling. I can also BH loop a little with my inverted. I can FH chop with pips or anti. Suggestions?


Should you try it? I'll reply with another question: do you gain something by using it? Probably. But does it weigh against the thing you lose by going to anti? I don't think another forum member can provide you the answer.
This might also be a classic case of the EJ bug biting and putting you back into a cycle. I'm wondering what you're searching for, if you search something at all (you might just do it because you like change)? Or are you searching for certainty, something not one piece of rubber can give you, but only you?
All the antis you mention are good.

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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2015, 02:31 
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Lorre wrote:
Pipsy wrote:
Overall, I can't see the logic in your quest. You went from LP to SP and MP to be able to give more backspin, to have more grip and attacking possibilities and now you're going more or less the opposite direction.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with trying :lol:


I don't think DA is going the opposite way. He's still looking for a grippy anti (although you might say anti=LP, but this depends on which anti, I guess).

Def-attack wrote:
Now I would like some input :angel: . If I were to give anti a real go (should I do that?), what anti would suit me the best for the style I play? Tibhar Ellen def? Juic Neo Anti? Or perhaps the one I already got? I need something very slow but still ok to attack with, and a little grip is wanted I think. It should be good for recieving serves, especially fast and spinny ones. I play close to the table attacking all I can (or blocking) and when I can't attack I back away and chop. I am ok with twiddeling. I can also BH loop a little with my inverted. I can FH chop with pips or anti. Suggestions?


Should you try it? I'll reply with another question: do you gain something by using it? Probably. But does it weigh against the thing you lose by going to anti? I don't think another forum member can provide you the answer.
This might also be a classic case of the EJ bug biting and putting you back into a cycle. I'm wondering what you're searching for, if you search something at all (you might just do it because you like change)? Or are you searching for certainty, something not one piece of rubber can give you, but only you?
All the antis you mention are good.

All your questions are highly relevant :). Need to think some more about them.
What I want seem to change as I develop my game. But I know I must be able to trust my BH defence (chopping) and I must be able to do some blocking and attacking to be satisfyed. Those variables are a little tricky to combine...

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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2015, 20:51 
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Def-attack wrote:
All your questions are highly relevant :). Need to think some more about them.
What I want seem to change as I develop my game. But I know I must be able to trust my BH defence (chopping) and I must be able to do some blocking and attacking to be satisfyed. Those variables are a little tricky to combine...


All coverings can do this, ranging from inverted to grippy LPs. So it's a matter of choice. The question is: what are your strenghts? Or better: what stroke do you want to be your strenght? That's your starting point. Is defense your strenght or do you want it to be, then go for a good grippy LP. Is it more blocking, then go frictionless anti or OX LP. Is it attacking, then go for a grippy anti, SP or inverted. Settle on your setup, get antibiotics for the EJ bug ;) and start training on strokes and start training for tactical thinking in practice games.

It's strange that what you want, seem to change as you develop your game. I have been developing my game for ten years now and I still want the same as I wanted the first day I played competitive TT. Maybe you start using a certain kind of equipment and you see only the strenghts in the beginning. Then you discover it also has weaknesses. You change to other equipment to cover that weakness, but that other equipment also has weaknesses. Never ending cycle.

It's like someone who wants to find the ideal love. He falls in love with someone and in the beginning he only sees her strong sides. Once he starts to know her better, he discovers her weaknesses and dumps her for someone who doesn't has those weaknesses, but instead has them as strong sides. Off course the girl has also weaknesses, so eventually she also gets dumped. And so on.

But what if you accept there isn't an ideal love or better: what if ideal love is the one in which you love both strong and weak sides of your partner? You go for a couple of crucial treats your desire in a partner and you accept (better: get in love over time) with the other treats your partner has.

Well, it's the same with equipment. You want to go for a certain strenght, then choose the equipment that is best for it and accept the downsides of that choice. That doesn't mean you can't work on those weak aspects: but it will be a interaction between strenghtening those weaknesses and adapting yourself to it. I think I described how a style develops.

Not a critic, just yummy food for thought. ;)

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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2015, 21:08 
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Good thoughts Lorre. I tend to like the thought of an easy way to success since I rarely have opportunity to practice more than once or sometimes twice a week. And when also I tend to let my mind drift away when I have been facing new opponents. I am playing a much more difficult league this season, that stsrt some processes in my mind, trying to figure out how to handle young and fast players.

To tell you the truth I am rather happy with my setup and I am fully aware of the "fall in love"-syndrome, making all new rubbers seem very good the first sessions.

Still, there are some parts of the anti I really like. I just have to find out about the weaknesses of the rubber, compared to what I use now.

I have a longer break in December. Might give NeoAnti a go then...

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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2015, 21:30 
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Anti is the one area I have not really tried. I do read that a lot of players like the Neubauer latest anti. But it is expensive.

I always make the choice of equipment based on what I enjoy playing with the most. That usually is what makes me win matches (winning is fun) but not always. I say if you enjoy it go that way.

As mentioned above in another post, the one thing it sounds like you have not tried is a regular inverted rubber that works well for chopping. These rubbers allow you to push, block, chop, and attack. The only thing they lack is the hard to quantify weirdness of a LP or an anti. Where I play there are few LP players and even less anti spin players. No one at my club plays with it and I can only remember 1 tournament match against antispin in the last 10 years or so that I have played.


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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2015, 21:30 
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Def-attack wrote:
Good thoughts Lorre. I tend to like the thought of an easy way to success since I rarely have opportunity to practice more than once or sometimes twice a week. And when also I tend to let my mind drift away when I have been facing new opponents. I am playing a much more difficult league this season, that stsrt some processes in my mind, trying to figure out how to handle young and fast players.

To tell you the truth I am rather happy with my setup and I am fully aware of the "fall in love"-syndrome, making all new rubbers seem very good the first sessions.

Still, there are some parts of the anti I really like. I just have to find out about the weaknesses of the rubber, compared to what I use now.

I have a longer break in December. Might give NeoAnti a go then...


Your first lines of thought are :up: . Like you say you don't train enough and that's what probably will result in losses agains those young and fast players. At a certain level there aren't any shortcuts anymore. I almost can guarantee you anti will not help you any further if that is what you want to accomplish. Only training will and if that's not possible, then maybe you have to accept the fact you hit your ceiling. That might be harsh, but if your life is going well, then you might view it as something like: "I made the best of what I could do with the time I have for it".

I myself have a certain reacheable goal ratingwise and I'm steadily working towards it. I put a lot of effort in it and I need to let some other things go (playing 4 or 5 times a week takes time). I never will be a national or pro player but I'll better than 90% of the playing population. Once I've reached that goal, I'll be happy with what I accomplished in TT ratingwise. From then on I'll be putting emphasis on training youngsters and especially training a modern defender. My rating will be less important than that and in contrary to some older idiots, probably because they never fulfilled their dreams in the first place, I know I never will get in the way of someone who's on the rise ratingwise.

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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2015, 22:11 
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I do want to say that your FH is looking very, very good with H8 on it!


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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2015, 23:34 
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vanjr wrote:
I do want to say that your FH is looking very, very good with H8 on it!

Thanx! I have worked a lot with my FH this summer and I can cause my higher ranked opponents troubles with it. One very important part of my game is to setup for my FH. I usually win the point when I get to attack with my FH.

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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2015, 23:39 
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Lorre wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
Good thoughts Lorre. I tend to like the thought of an easy way to success since I rarely have opportunity to practice more than once or sometimes twice a week. And when also I tend to let my mind drift away when I have been facing new opponents. I am playing a much more difficult league this season, that stsrt some processes in my mind, trying to figure out how to handle young and fast players.

To tell you the truth I am rather happy with my setup and I am fully aware of the "fall in love"-syndrome, making all new rubbers seem very good the first sessions.

Still, there are some parts of the anti I really like. I just have to find out about the weaknesses of the rubber, compared to what I use now.

I have a longer break in December. Might give NeoAnti a go then...


Your first lines of thought are :up: . Like you say you don't train enough and that's what probably will result in losses agains those young and fast players. At a certain level there aren't any shortcuts anymore. I almost can guarantee you anti will not help you any further if that is what you want to accomplish. Only training will and if that's not possible, then maybe you have to accept the fact you hit your ceiling. That might be harsh, but if your life is going well, then you might view it as something like: "I made the best of what I could do with the time I have for it".

I myself have a certain reacheable goal ratingwise and I'm steadily working towards it. I put a lot of effort in it and I need to let some other things go (playing 4 or 5 times a week takes time). I never will be a national or pro player but I'll better than 90% of the playing population. Once I've reached that goal, I'll be happy with what I accomplished in TT ratingwise. From then on I'll be putting emphasis on training youngsters and especially training a modern defender. My rating will be less important than that and in contrary to some older idiots, probably because they never fulfilled their dreams in the first place, I know I never will get in the way of someone who's on the rise ratingwise.

Well, I don't really have any precise goals anymore, besides having fun :)
And that might be what had led me to those changes lately. What is the most fun. I changed to SP to be able to attack more and pehaps change spin more. But I lost deception (lp effect) and I realzed how fun that was to some extend (I am not inte lp ox for the moment). So Militall was the middle way. And then anti seemed very fun... but still Millitall is very fun also :)...

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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2015, 23:45 
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Now, if we put this discussion6 about the changing material aside, and focus on anti, I do need some guidence. Those of you who have used anti, what would be the best for my style? Slick anti like Beast or BAD? NeoAnti? Ellen def? Has any of you tried GD soft Anti? Slowness and grip of that compared to other? What is best for attaclikg, some blocking and distance chopping?
What I like with GD soft anti is the low speed, that makes it easy to chop close to the table even with a fast blade.

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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2015, 03:06 
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Def-attack wrote:
Now, if we put this discussion6 about the changing material aside, and focus on anti, I do need some guidence. Those of you who have used anti, what would be the best for my style? Slick anti like Beast or BAD? NeoAnti? Ellen def? Has any of you tried GD soft Anti? Slowness and grip of that compared to other? What is best for attaclikg, some blocking and distance chopping?
What I like with GD soft anti is the low speed, that makes it easy to chop close to the table even with a fast blade.


The basic choice is between frictionless and friction.
Frictionless anti will offer effortless defense against incoming topspin, but you will not be able to change the spin much or produce any yourself, so you must be sure you will be able to force the opponent to play with topspin (which you will reverse) - or backspin, for you will be able to push agressively against that. Frictionless anti will severely limit your options, but you will be able to focus more on the options it offers, and probably also on your attack with the inverted side. It is a choice for players who are aware of their declining physical abilities and/or who want to concentrate on a limited number of strokes and precise tactics. There is no shame in that, rather the opposite...
Anti with friction and capable of attack means Stiga Energy Absorber in 1.6 mm (or perhaps Butterfly Super Anti). Juic NeoAnti has less grip and only allows meaningful spinvariation in 2.0 mm, which thickness rules out any disruption to speak of. Tibhar Ellen Def is too slow to attack with. The Energy Absorber has a hard topsheet ans a medium sponge; you will be able to produce heavy topspin when using a lot of wrist action and the right angle; attacks will be dangerous and disruptive. But the basic speed is a bit high (higher than most LP's) so you would want it either on a slow blade or an a All- blade with great control. This anti is for a varied def-attack game, which means you have to move a lot, especially in and out.

The Giant Dragon Anti is slightly faster than the Stiga and will be faster than most frictionless anti's. In fact, it is a semi-anti. You will be surprised how much more easy it is to play with real anti's.

As for LP players who warn you to stay away from antispin rubbers, there is a huge difference between technique and tactics with LP and anti, which may explain why LP players as a rule do not appreciate anti. I have played both, extensively, and I wouldn't want to choose as they both have their pro's and con's. In my opinion it is perfectly feasible to play as effectively with anti, as with LP, but the styles involved will never be the same.

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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2015, 04:03 
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Kees wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
Now, if we put this discussion6 about the changing material aside, and focus on anti, I do need some guidence. Those of you who have used anti, what would be the best for my style? Slick anti like Beast or BAD? NeoAnti? Ellen def? Has any of you tried GD soft Anti? Slowness and grip of that compared to other? What is best for attaclikg, some blocking and distance chopping?
What I like with GD soft anti is the low speed, that makes it easy to chop close to the table even with a fast blade.


The basic choice is between frictionless and friction.
Frictionless anti will offer effortless defense against incoming topspin, but you will not be able to change the spin much or produce any yourself, so you must be sure you will be able to force the opponent to play with topspin (which you will reverse) - or backspin, for you will be able to push agressively against that. Frictionless anti will severely limit your options, but you will be able to focus more on the options it offers, and probably also on your attack with the inverted side. It is a choice for players who are aware of their declining physical abilities and/or who want to concentrate on a limited number of strokes and precise tactics. There is no shame in that, rather the opposite...
Anti with friction and capable of attack means Stiga Energy Absorber in 1.6 mm (or perhaps Butterfly Super Anti). Juic NeoAnti has less grip and only allows meaningful spinvariation in 2.0 mm, which thickness rules out any disruption to speak of. Tibhar Ellen Def is too slow to attack with. The Energy Absorber has a hard topsheet ans a medium sponge; you will be able to produce heavy topspin when using a lot of wrist action and the right angle; attacks will be dangerous and disruptive. But the basic speed is a bit high (higher than most LP's) so you would want it either on a slow blade or an a All- blade with great control. This anti is for a varied def-attack game, which means you have to move a lot, especially in and out.

The Giant Dragon Anti is slightly faster than the Stiga and will be faster than most frictionless anti's. In fact, it is a semi-anti. You will be surprised how much more easy it is to play with real anti's.

As for LP players who warn you to stay away from antispin rubbers, there is a huge difference between technique and tactics with LP and anti, which may explain why LP players as a rule do not appreciate anti. I have played both, extensively, and I wouldn't want to choose as they both have their pro's and con's. In my opinion it is perfectly feasible to play as effectively with anti, as with LP, but the styles involved will never be the same.


Thanks a lot Kees, thoughtful as always. Just a quick wondering. There are other Giant Dragon Antis, called Guard and Guard Special. The one I tried in the video is called Soft Anti. Is this the one that is slightly faster than Stiga? In that case Stiga must be extremely slow... And that is slower than most antis?

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