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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 10:43 
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Hi all,
I’m looking for a new frictionless anti to replicate this beast: viewtopic.php?f=53&t=30537. That’s an old Yasaka Anti Power (1.5mm), to give an idea of its speed.

My first priority is I want the highest reversal possible: I like to twiddle a lot and catch people off with awkward, wobbly service returns, and sometimes in pushing rallies. It also needs to work back from the table a bit, so I can get loads of backspin when returning loops.

I’ll go for a thinner sponge, seeing as I’m coming from the fast-ish YAP, and I think I can adapt to a slightly thinner sponge. The blocks on that YAP are particularly difficult, but always a point winner when they go in - if the replacement can block a little easier but with lots of reversal, that would be perfect. Throwing the odd fast attack in would also be nice.

I’m thinking along the lines of Mega-Block or Transformer… possibly something from Dr Neubauer? I’ve compiled a list of potential rubbers below: please give me suggestions as to what would work best for me!

Thanks,
Musicfreak :up:


List:
DMS Mega-Block, DMS Transformer, DMS Beast, DMS Diabolic, Dr N Bison, Dr N Buffalo, Dr N ABS, Dr N Anti Special

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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 11:19 
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Musicfreak0 wrote:
Quote:
My first priority is I want the highest reversal possible: I like to twiddle a lot and catch people off with awkward, wobbly service returns, and sometimes in pushing rallies. It also needs to work back from the table a bit, so I can get loads of backspin when returning loops.


Unfortunately "highest reversal possible" and "get loads of backspin when returning loops" are somewhat contradictory, as if it can do one, it wont be able to do the other, and vice versa. Laws of physics and all that.

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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 11:25 
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Retriever wrote:
Musicfreak0 wrote:
Quote:
My first priority is I want the highest reversal possible: I like to twiddle a lot and catch people off with awkward, wobbly service returns, and sometimes in pushing rallies. It also needs to work back from the table a bit, so I can get loads of backspin when returning loops.


Unfortunately "highest reversal possible" and "get loads of backspin when returning loops" are somewhat contradictory, as if it can do one, it wont be able to do the other, and vice versa. Laws of physics and all that.


How so? The topspin from the loop is conserved and is returned as backspin. I'm not talking about generating my own backspin on chops.

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New Setup: Giant Dragon Kris II, Reactor Corbor, Yasaka Anti Power

Backup 1: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Provincial (Blue Sponge, no. 22), Yasaka Anti Power
Backup 2: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Neo, Butterfly Super Anti
Self-proclaimed only unofficial spin doctor of OOAK. Call me Joe or musicfreak :rock:
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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 15:00 
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Musicfreak0 wrote:
Retriever wrote:
Musicfreak0 wrote:
Quote:
My first priority is I want the highest reversal possible: I like to twiddle a lot and catch people off with awkward, wobbly service returns, and sometimes in pushing rallies. It also needs to work back from the table a bit, so I can get loads of backspin when returning loops.


Unfortunately "highest reversal possible" and "get loads of backspin when returning loops" are somewhat contradictory, as if it can do one, it wont be able to do the other, and vice versa. Laws of physics and all that.


How so? The topspin from the loop is conserved and is returned as backspin. I'm not talking about generating my own backspin on chops.


The spin from a loop will fade away if you chop it away from theithout spin e table and you will return a dead chop (does not mean bad chop, just not loaded with back spin).
If you sort of block away from the table with frictionless anti you might return some back spin.

If you want some speed in your anti you should go with Bison (harder feeling clmpared to rubbers from DMS). To maximize control go with Mega Block. Highest reversal (but perhaps short lifespan of the rubber) would be with Transformer or Diabolic (Diabolic is faster, softer and more dynamic).

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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 18:06 
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Def-attack wrote:
The spin from a loop will fade away if you chop it away from the table and you will return a dead chop (does not mean bad chop, just not loaded with back spin).
If you sort of block away from the table with frictionless anti you might return some back spin.


Yeah, the anti in the video seems to return quite a lot of backspin when I'm doing that - I'm sure it'd be the same with any other frictionless anti. How does Mega Block's reversal compare to the others? I would probably take the rubber on and off fairly frequently too, so durability should definitely be taken into account.

Thanks for the feedback :)

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New Setup: Giant Dragon Kris II, Reactor Corbor, Yasaka Anti Power

Backup 1: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Provincial (Blue Sponge, no. 22), Yasaka Anti Power
Backup 2: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Neo, Butterfly Super Anti
Self-proclaimed only unofficial spin doctor of OOAK. Call me Joe or musicfreak :rock:
The author of How Spin Works. The Official How Spin Works Thread. How Spin Works goes to India!
See my 3D Printed/Laser Cut blade experiment blog.


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 19:19 
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Musicfreak0 wrote:
Def-attack wrote:
The spin from a loop will fade away if you chop it away from the table and you will return a dead chop (does not mean bad chop, just not loaded with back spin).
If you sort of block away from the table with frictionless anti you might return some back spin.


Yeah, the anti in the video seems to return quite a lot of backspin when I'm doing that - I'm sure it'd be the same with any other frictionless anti. How does Mega Block's reversal compare to the others? I would probably take the rubber on and off fairly frequently too, so durability should definitely be taken into account.

Thanks for the feedback :)


Mega-Block has less spin reversal compared to most of the orhers. Rubbers from DMS are rather fragile with very porous sponges. Those can be difficult to move around. Make sure to use glue sheet and try not to bend the rubber when removing. Neubauers sponges are harder and not as fragile but they can still be tricky to move without creating wrinkles on the top sheet.

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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 00:11 
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Whoa, you haven't posted in a while from what I remember. Nice to see you. Seeing as this thread is about getting a new anti, why do you want to replace your current one? Just wondering

EDIT:
Oops, I read that wrong :oops: :P You said "replicate", not "replace"
Would be cool to see how your experiment turns out. Seeing as YAP is supposed to be an anti that has a little grip when new, why not use whatever anti you feel like using?

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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 03:22 
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Haha, you won't be moving mega-block or other DMS rubbers around frequently! Very difficult to do... If that is your intent, I would peel the glue sheet on and off a counter-top over and over until there is barely any stickiness remaining. Then put that onto the blade. I have a sheet that I use to transfer from blade to blade, but it is wrinkled a bit from the first removal.

And I know others say the mega-block can't chop away from the table... however, and I've posted about this one, the technique I use when chopping off the table with MB does send back a lot of back spin. As in the ball will roll into the net after bouncing or roll back to my side of the table. Not super heavy like an inverted chop, but enough to force a push from most players. This is done against even moderate loops or drives with a bit of top spin. Against dead balls you can expect less. I do this by chopping essentially flat under the ball, parallel to the floor. Almost as if you were sliding your hand across a counter-top. Sometimes scooping under the ball hitting slightly upward, contacting the bottom half on the front side, instead of the back. The spin reversal, or rather the spin on the ball, was right around the same level as a number of LP's I also use. In fact, I was returning more spin with MB than I was with nittaku best anti for example. And that one cannot block nearly as good, since it is not frictionless. MB is great for blocks too.


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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 09:53 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
Haha, you won't be moving mega-block or other DMS rubbers around frequently! Very difficult to do... If that is your intent, I would peel the glue sheet on and off a counter-top over and over until there is barely any stickiness remaining. Then put that onto the blade. I have a sheet that I use to transfer from blade to blade, but it is wrinkled a bit from the first removal.

And I know others say the mega-block can't chop away from the table... however, and I've posted about this one, the technique I use when chopping off the table with MB does send back a lot of back spin. The spin reversal, or rather the spin on the ball, was right around the same level as a number of LP's I also use. In fact, I was returning more spin with MB than I was with nittaku best anti for example. And that one cannot block nearly as good, since it is not frictionless. MB is great for blocks too.


The durability is a concern, so I'm gravitating towards the Dr Neubauer rubbers a bit more now. The reversal of the YAP in the video (which is very old and starting to get patchy) was comparable to Super Block. So reversal really is a key here.

I'm thinking Buffalo or Bison. Any ideas as to which would be better?

Thanks.

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New Setup: Giant Dragon Kris II, Reactor Corbor, Yasaka Anti Power

Backup 1: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Provincial (Blue Sponge, no. 22), Yasaka Anti Power
Backup 2: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Neo, Butterfly Super Anti
Self-proclaimed only unofficial spin doctor of OOAK. Call me Joe or musicfreak :rock:
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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 14:45 
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Musicfreak0 wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
Haha, you won't be moving mega-block or other DMS rubbers around frequently! Very difficult to do... If that is your intent, I would peel the glue sheet on and off a counter-top over and over until there is barely any stickiness remaining. Then put that onto the blade. I have a sheet that I use to transfer from blade to blade, but it is wrinkled a bit from the first removal.

And I know others say the mega-block can't chop away from the table... however, and I've posted about this one, the technique I use when chopping off the table with MB does send back a lot of back spin. The spin reversal, or rather the spin on the ball, was right around the same level as a number of LP's I also use. In fact, I was returning more spin with MB than I was with nittaku best anti for example. And that one cannot block nearly as good, since it is not frictionless. MB is great for blocks too.


The durability is a concern, so I'm gravitating towards the Dr Neubauer rubbers a bit more now. The reversal of the YAP in the video (which is very old and starting to get patchy) was comparable to Super Block. So reversal really is a key here.

I'm thinking Buffalo or Bison. Any ideas as to which would be better?

Thanks.


I've briefly tested bison, and when compared to MB, I thought MB clearly had more passive reversal. Can't really comment on the durability of MB, as I bought a ton of sheets and replaced them willy-nilly... I have the rhino from Dr N which is supposed to be the "improved" version of his past antis I suppose. I still think MB had more reversal, better dampening, and was easier to use. Rhino is harder to control and might be better for a more aggressive game overall. MB attacks backspin much better from my tests, but rhino has an easier time vs no/low spin. Same for the bison.

In reality, they're really not all THAT much different from each other. Buying one or the other is only going to require a few minor adjustments. Same class of antis with slight pros/cons. You could spend all year going back and forth on various antis (as I have!) and be no better off, but a lot poorer! I would suggest just picking one and sticking with it, unless you find the equipment testing part fun.


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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 16:39 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
Musicfreak0 wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
Haha, you won't be moving mega-block or other DMS rubbers around frequently! Very difficult to do... If that is your intent, I would peel the glue sheet on and off a counter-top over and over until there is barely any stickiness remaining. Then put that onto the blade. I have a sheet that I use to transfer from blade to blade, but it is wrinkled a bit from the first removal.

And I know others say the mega-block can't chop away from the table... however, and I've posted about this one, the technique I use when chopping off the table with MB does send back a lot of back spin. The spin reversal, or rather the spin on the ball, was right around the same level as a number of LP's I also use. In fact, I was returning more spin with MB than I was with nittaku best anti for example. And that one cannot block nearly as good, since it is not frictionless. MB is great for blocks too.


The durability is a concern, so I'm gravitating towards the Dr Neubauer rubbers a bit more now. The reversal of the YAP in the video (which is very old and starting to get patchy) was comparable to Super Block. So reversal really is a key here.

I'm thinking Buffalo or Bison. Any ideas as to which would be better?

Thanks.


I've briefly tested bison, and when compared to MB, I thought MB clearly had more passive reversal. Can't really comment on the durability of MB, as I bought a ton of sheets and replaced them willy-nilly... I have the rhino from Dr N which is supposed to be the "improved" version of his past antis I suppose. I still think MB had more reversal, better dampening, and was easier to use. Rhino is harder to control and might be better for a more aggressive game overall. MB attacks backspin much better from my tests, but rhino has an easier time vs no/low spin. Same for the bison.

In reality, they're really not all THAT much different from each other. Buying one or the other is only going to require a few minor adjustments. Same class of antis with slight pros/cons. You could spend all year going back and forth on various antis (as I have!) and be no better off, but a lot poorer! I would suggest just picking one and sticking with it, unless you find the equipment testing part fun.


I agree! Pick one and stick with it.
About Neubauers rubber - here is what Carsten Neubauer wrote about new versions of their rubbers (to me it sounds like you should start with Buffalo):

Hi,

to put an end to "speculation": Yes, there are 3 new versions of our well-known anti-spin rubbers available soon:
Buffalo +
Bison +
Rhino +

The sponge used here is the same, but it feels a little different.
In these new versions, the spin reversal was actually improved a bit, this is noticeable both with celluloid balls as well as with plastic balls. In addition, the ball dips a little more.
Unfortunately, when using the ABS ball (which is known to be unsuitable for the material game), it is still not possible to achieve the same spin reversal as with conventional plastic balls. Compared to the current "smooth antis" on the market, the above mentioned 3 new pads are certainly at the forefront.

The same applies to the new "+" versions as the existing Antis:
'Buffalo +' is still a good choice for the passive (and short) blockball at the table, with very good spin reversal.
'Bison +' has a slightly softer touch and will provide a bit more control for many players. As a result, 'Bison +' can also be used on fast, hard woods.
'Rhino +' is similar to 'Bison +' but with slightly improved attack possibilities.

For further questions you can - as always - like to contact me by email

VG
Carsten

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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 18:47 
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Thanks for all the info, guys. I think I'll settle on a Dr N Bison, going from what I've read.

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New Setup: Giant Dragon Kris II, Reactor Corbor, Yasaka Anti Power

Backup 1: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Provincial (Blue Sponge, no. 22), Yasaka Anti Power
Backup 2: Yinhe N-9, DHS Hurricane 3 Neo, Butterfly Super Anti
Self-proclaimed only unofficial spin doctor of OOAK. Call me Joe or musicfreak :rock:
The author of How Spin Works. The Official How Spin Works Thread. How Spin Works goes to India!
See my 3D Printed/Laser Cut blade experiment blog.


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