OOAK Table Tennis Forum

To add my two cents to the discussion of the future of close-to-the-table defenders, while I understand that nothing is going to match Superblock, I'm also not trying to match Superblock. I play a very active style, with lots of twiddling, aggressive pips pushes, long pips attacks and even off-the-table chopping. And I can beat some decent players doing what I do. But long pips blocks are still my bread and butter against loopers, so I need a rubber that can absorb pace to keep the ball on the table and return a ball that can't be blasted back at me. As far as I know, there are only three ways a rubber can accomplish that goal:

(1) spin reversal;
(2) keeping the ball very short; or
(3) unpredictable spin on returns.

I expected the Spinlord Gigant not to do (1) as effectively as some of the long pips that are out there, but I was hoping it would make up for that with some combination of (2) and (3). I did not find that to be the case. Moreover, I found that the attacks with Gigant were much easier to return than my long pips attacks. So that's why I found the rubber not effective for my purposes ... though I do agree with the comments here that have commended Spinlord for trying something new. Maybe they'll get it right next time around.

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I. Re-Impact Tachi Plus 2019; FH: Nittaku FastArc G-1 1.4mm; BH: Saviga 77 Monster OX
II. Re-Impact Turbo; FH: Spinlord Sandwind 1.5mm; BH: DMS Kamikaze OX
III. Re-Impact Smart; FH: TSP Spinpips RED 2.1mm; BH: Dr. Neubauer Gangster OX
IV. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Spinlord Waran 1.8mm; BH: Giant Dragon Snowflake OX

I agree. We have to vary our play as much as possible. I am returning to a combination blade and using 0.5mm under my long pip.... starting this morning.
Bulldog

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Tibhar Stratus Power Defense
Tibhar Evolution ELP
Tibhar Grass DTecS Ox

... though I do agree with the comments here that have commended Spinlord for trying something new. Maybe they'll get it right next time around.[/quote]

Yes,you are very right. I have been thinking of experimenting the Palio ck531A with Gigant sponge.What do you think??? Reversal will be lesser but the strong attacks from the opponent could be tackled more easily due to the dampening sponge.

There is a video on YouTube of a guy practising with the palio plus D.N. ABS sponge.It seems to absorb the impact alright.

I guess Gigant's can do it just well.

Excellent post, Charmander. 100% agree. I am working on playing far more like Liu Song than Sebastien Sauer, both great players. I used to be more like S.Sauer with a strong FH. Now I am focusing almost exclusively on winning with the FH. The only problem with trying to play like Liu Song is my age. And profound lack of anything like his quickness around the table! And his exponentially higher skill level!

Excellent post, Charmander. 100% agree. I am working on playing far more like Liu Song than Sebastien Sauer, both great players. I used to be more like S.Sauer with a strong FH. Now I am focusing almost exclusively on winning with the FH. The only problem with trying to play like Liu Song is my age. And profound lack of anything like his quickness around the table! And his exponentially higher skill level! [/quote]

Well, I am sure you will be able to improve your game if you train with enthusiasm and believing in your tactics. Last weekend at a local tournament I saw 60+ players performing really well and although difficult to believe,they did move around fast !! . Choosing empowering thoughts makes one stronger. I am sure you have your talent,just take the most of it!! .

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Tonight I have " dated" Spinlord Gigant for three hours.I must say it is impressive on short blocks and short serves.I love it being very slow as the placement obtained is phenomenal.I can easily put the ball in the empty corner and make the opponent move around and make him lose the timing .

One has to change the tactics to play with Gigant basing the game on placement, short blocks,short serves, counterattack and using the other rubber to disturb the pace as it is easy for an opponent to adapt to Gigant.

Yes, blocks are harmless in the sense there are no easy points obtained , one has to "work the point" and be a really good strategist-I like the challenge- .

Some people are disappointed because they expect easy points from the rubber,like unforced errors due to deception.If you are one of those defenders who just live on the rubber features to win games, then ,Gigant is not suitable for you .

I can serve very short-which is VERY uncomfortable for people with lack of mobility or those being lazy- then, with a wrist movement I counterattack to the opposite corner, making them move. Yes ,the attack is not harmful but unexpected.Next, I am waiting to block with my fh or bh or keeping my counteratttack going .

If Gigant had a decent spin reversal , it would be the perfect rubber for close to the table blocking , however, I think it still has potential to play with an intelligent strategy and with a compulsory twiddling game .

The sense of control is wonderful,the bashing of the ball is great, or else the ball dies in the net.I like the sound it makes: klonk, klonk as if saying slow,slow please, no stress .... ........

If the ball is high enough- above net level-you can attack with it on the fh but you need to hit like a gladiator !!!!

On the bh I am experimenting with palio ck 531A on a 1.3 mm sponge from D.N. K.O . I can attack with my fh safely and blocks are low too . The spin reversal is diminished because of the sponge and the black colour - black palio is slower and has a bit less reversal than the version in red - .The trajectory is low so when I push or just pass the ball , it goes downwards. the only problem is no spin balls on serves but if I want to be safe and not to complicate things I just use Gigant even on the bh .

This rubber will make many players happy but as everyone knows, the perfect rubber does not exist and Gigant has the problem of not being dangerous enough to get extra points from the mistakes of the opponent . Given the scenario of the abs ball , Spinlord must have understood that a new tt strategy should be implemented , hence, the out of the box award is clearly for them !!!

That’s a very good description. It sounds like the tactics required to get the maximum benefit are the same as those required with any classic anti (and even to some extent with frictionless anti these days). Is the main difference that Gigant is even slower than most of the older classics (anti power, super anti etc)?

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2. S&T Black & White / Armstrong SH-I 1.8 / TSP Curl P3 Alpha R OX

Hello,D.054! In fact,Gigant might be considered the slowest of them all.The braking effect is spectacular,the control is perfect- the ball goes exactly where you want it to go.As I' ve said, Gigant is an strategic rubber so you can apply your tactics.The opponent may be get tired psychologically,Gigant returns everything back if you are in the correct place.Then,the forehand or a twiidling game does the rest in the counterattack .

I think you're misunderstanding my concern (and perhaps that of some others). It's not that I'm expecting to get a bunch of unforced errors due to pure deception. At a certain level of play, that's just not going to happen very much. Most opponents above a certain level understand the way anti and long pips rubbers work, and after a bit of adjustment, they can adjust sufficiently that you're not going to be able to rely on unforced errors alone.

So what I'm looking for from my pips or anti rubber is not just deception, but rather, the capacity to control the table, dictate points rather than having them dictated to me, move my opponent around and ultimately put them in a position where they have to make a difficult shot if they want to keep attacking (and if I can attack some balls with the pips or anti rubber, that's an added bonus). With the long pips I use (currently the Dr. N Desperado 2 against most players), if I block back a loop, I'm not simply expecting that my opponent is going to be deceived and miss for that reason. What I'm expecting is that there's some underspin on the ball, so that if my opponent wants to keep looping, that'll take a bit of effort that's required to generate spin, resulting in a greater likelihood of errors due to the inherent technical difficulty of the loop (as compared to the flat-hit or smash), as well as to the inherent need to estimate the amount of spin required to overcome the underspin on the ball without overshooting, and resulting, as well, in a slower, more manageable ball coming back to me (again, as compared to the flat-hit or smash). The problem with the Gigant is that the lack of spin reversal means that the next ball can be easily smacked (or, at best, that a very small amount of topspin is required to get it over the net). This puts my opponent in the driver's seat. The Gigant is great for keeping the ball short and for moving my opponent around, but if I get a strong opening loop to deal with, it's going to be very hard for me to keep it SO short that they can't attack the next one. And if they CAN attack, then that's a problem, because of the lack of spin reversal. This means that if you're facing a decent attacker, the next shot coming at you is going to be very fast and hard. That's not good.

Tactics and strategy and placement can only get you so far here. If you're using a super-slow rubber that dampens the ball and allows you exquisite control of placement but still sends back a mid-range ball in response to a decent loop and doesn't generate any spin reversal, you have a problem that's too hard to overcome if you're facing a good attacker. With regular classic anti, at least you're still putting pressure on your opponent with speed and relentless attacking, but with the Gigant, even your attacks can be looped back at you too easily. This is why I think that above a certain level (say, 1800), the Gigant just doesn't give you much of a chance against an attacker, no matter what you do.

I could be wrong, of course, and maybe there's some aspect of this rubber I just didn't tap into, but those are my impressions, for what they're worth.

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I. Re-Impact Tachi Plus 2019; FH: Nittaku FastArc G-1 1.4mm; BH: Saviga 77 Monster OX
II. Re-Impact Turbo; FH: Spinlord Sandwind 1.5mm; BH: DMS Kamikaze OX
III. Re-Impact Smart; FH: TSP Spinpips RED 2.1mm; BH: Dr. Neubauer Gangster OX
IV. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Spinlord Waran 1.8mm; BH: Giant Dragon Snowflake OX

I agree with you 99% .Just say Gigant ALONE will not solve its flaws.You are waiting ALREADY for that atack, then,... twiddle, block,chop block, chop etc,....

Can you imagine how fit the opponent must be to keep sending all the balls you send back on the table? can you imagine the degree of CONCENTRATION he must have during the game? by the third , fourth set you are stronger already,....

yes,.. let´s him attack,...then, you apply your tactics,...PRECISELY,... you want him to attack so you can deploy your strategy,....

yes,...the next shot fast and hard?,.... be in position,... you can send the ball back with gigant or counterattack or block with the pips etc,.....

You must believe in yourself and your tactics and train all these attacking possibilities beforehand ,..you play by knowing what is going to happen next,.....

As I said, Gigant makes you change the way you play,.... and I don´t believe everybody relies on easy points, just mentioned some players may reject Gigant for not being dangerous enough,....the nature of the rubber is NOT easy points,... that´s the POINT,....

No personal references,... just share my views,...

and yes, my dear mate,... there are aspects of the rubber you did not tap into,.... for example , when you push hard to the corners of the table, the opponent will leave a high ball to attack or if he is using speedy rubbers or off blades, chances are he will miss the table , yesterday I got points by thinking out of the box,..... .....

And the beauty of serving short and counterattack the second ball to the corner of the table is magnificent !!!,.... the opponent will be thinking : this is not about defending ONLY,,,,, and he will be under pressure ALL trhe sets,....

This rubber may be like when you have a problem with your wife or girlfriend. You have arguments because you don't understand how women think and process reality. Once you know how their brain and hormones work, chances are your arguments disappear. With Gigant could be the same, when you truly understand the nature of the rubber and you can work all its advantages and have solutions for its flaws,..then and only then will you understand the minds responsible for the creation of Gigant at Spinlord .

Be patient,.... train,...look for solutions,.... and if after doing that you feel bad about the rubber, then,... look for something else .

I hope I have made myself a bit clearer

Yes. 100% this. Well said. Short blocks work if there's reversal as well. It's the reversal in many cases, that pulls the ball up short. So while the Gigant does have great soakage (!) of pace, it does shoot the ball long and high and harmlessly against very powerful, very spinny loops found at the higher levels. Reversal forces an adjustment, a momentary pause and consideration of spin which normally allows me to step around or predict relatively accurately where the next loop will go. Anything long was just battered past me, and many of the short blocks w/no reversal were flipped to corners, pulling me out of position. Great rubber for some, I imagine, just not me. I am waiting for a sheet of ABS 2.1. I shall report back!

Hey, so you know what happens next on short blocks,... then, be ready at the corners!!!! ,,, yes, you are right in what you say about long blocks but as I said, you expect this already and twiddle,.... most attacks are diagonally,... you are waiting to chop or block with the pip in position,..... I understand what you mean,.... however, I like them to attack even like this because I know beforehand what they are going to do.....

You sound disappointed with Gigant,... maybe because you have not planned the scenario and the solutions for these attacks ,.... anyway,... yes,.. what you say is 100% correct,.... I just suggest the solutions for the flaws of the rubber and take the most of its advantages ......

It seems you are choosing the expensive flanti route,.... Amen!!!

No, as I said, I am using long pips, not frictionless anti. The spin reversal you get with frictionless anti is indeed massive, but I find the correct blocking angle to be too difficult to find, leading to too many errors. Maybe I'd just need to practice more, but even with the Dr. Neubauer ABS 2.1mm that our friends at noppen-test.de/forum seem excited about, the correct blade angle for each loop is very tricky. With long pips, I may not get as much spin reversal, but I can do more to control and dictate points w/o making unforced errors. Again, this might just be a matter of what I'm used to.

The Gigant has the advantage that, unlike frictionless anti, it is super easy to play and to return anything on the table. As I said, my issue with it is what happens AFTER you return the ball on the table. In too many cases, the next shot from your opponent is a big blast right past you. I had no trouble with this against opponents below, say, 1800 (U.S.), as these opponents would usually not be able to get set up to loop or smash Gigant's awkwardly placed short balls or wouldn't be able to loop back Gigant's attacks. But with opponents in the 1800-2100 range, the flaws in Gigant were exposed. Guys around 2000 that I regularly beat with my long pips were just teeing off against the Gigant. If you find a solution to this through twiddling, etc., more power to you, but I guess I'd ask you what you'll do in the following scenario:

You're playing a quality opponent. He loops. You block with Gigant, returning a ball that's on the shorter side but not super, super short and with no real spin to it. The next shot from your opponent is going to be either a smash or a big loop that's going to be very difficult to deal with. How is twiddling or anything else going to help you here? The bottom-line problem is that you need to PREVENT this shot from happening BEFORE it happens. The way I'd prevent that shot from happening with long pips is principally through the combination of awkward placement and some spin reversal. With the Gigant, you have awkward placement but hardly any spin reversal. Instead of spin reversal, you can keep the ball short ... but the problem is that you can't consistently keep it VERY short if you're facing a strong opening loop. So you have to find some other way. What is that way? The only other approach I'm aware of is to attack yourself. Again, though, the problem is that with Gigant the attacks are not consistently dangerous enough to prevent you from getting a big counterattack by a quality opponent. So I just don't see a solution. Maybe you'll find one ....

_________________
I. Re-Impact Tachi Plus 2019; FH: Nittaku FastArc G-1 1.4mm; BH: Saviga 77 Monster OX
II. Re-Impact Turbo; FH: Spinlord Sandwind 1.5mm; BH: DMS Kamikaze OX
III. Re-Impact Smart; FH: TSP Spinpips RED 2.1mm; BH: Dr. Neubauer Gangster OX
IV. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Spinlord Waran 1.8mm; BH: Giant Dragon Snowflake OX

I agree 100 %.It is obvious you cannot block with Gigant all the time.....Maybe one or 2 blocks maximum.... Then,it is the time to use the other side of the blade or counterattack with Gigant,which is harmless in 80% of the cases because I do gain points by pushing and with a wrist movement with my BH....

Gigant at high levels is a rubber for safe reception of serves ,short blocks and serves ....... I have played against high level players and all of them had problems with short blocking because the next shot was a faster block or a counterattack with a different rubber .....

Gigant USED ALONE becomes a real sitting duck...you are all right.....the point I have always tried to make is a compulsory twiddling game of counterattack and faster blocks with reversal from pips .....

I gather you all played wit Gigant in a consistent way and never changing to a different rubber in the backhand........then,of course,Gigant becomes useless at higher levels and this is the aspect we all seem to agree on .....

Dear GIgant discussion members,

Tonight I have trained for 4 hours with the following set up: BTY Superanti 1.9 and Gigant . I must say it has been a pleasure .Blocking with both rubbers in a twiddling game . Serving megasuper short and then attacking the ball with the bh into the corners!!!,... using Gigant at the right time to take the pace off the ball, then.. changing to BTFY Superanti,.... oh, man!!!,....how exciting!! ,....

The percentage of balls on the table 90%,.... meaning winning by tactics ,.....when I overused Gigant in blocking-just a few occasions-I lost the point because I overexposed the flaws of the rubber ..... that´s the point of my dear forum members-Gigant used ALONE with continuous blocks is a recipe for disaster BUT when used in a twiddling game the short blocks cause havoc because when you change the rubbber the game changes completely and the opponent takes too much time to adapt,....THAT was what I have been trying to explain in the other posts, dear forum members,....if your game is blocking and counteratttaclking,give it a try,....

..... and the sense of control during the game is awsome!!!!