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 Post subject: Penhold Anti or LP?
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2018, 08:15 
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Right now using Butterfly Super Anti to block/drive etc. Can RPB with inverted.

I think LP has much better reversal. I don't see much reversal when blocking someone's FH drives. I saw very strong reversal when I used to play against some 0x LP dude who blocked my TPB (which doesn't have much topspin) unless I remember incorrectly...

Can I use LP with good reversal and still hit sometimes? I'm fine with all-around style but maybe not defensive. That 0x LP guy would only attack with a flick or with RPB occasionally

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 Post subject: Re: Penhold Anti or LP?
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2018, 08:50 
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I've certainly spent a fair amount of time wondering the exact same thing, and if you get a more definitive answer on this I'll be soaking up that info as well.

My thoughts based on experience and reading to this point:

Passive reversal isn't as strong currently as it was? This seems to be the general idea that I've been seeing around here, and beyond that - the super anti is more of a classical anti vs the newer flanti where the reversal seems to more of the focus.

I'm currently running the Tibhar Ellen Def as my pengrip forehand rubber, and I've found that I can attack with it fairly well using a stroke that is quite similar to my short pips stroke, and the aided reversal has been pretty nice for me as well. I think that the biggest benefit of the anti comes from this ability to hit flat or even slight top against incoming tops.

From some of the blogs and the conversations, it seems harder to find a long pip with as much total versatility, but you could focus in and be better as specific things very easily. I have read about some people having good success with just block and hit, so I think you could find it for sure.

However, if it has a ton of passive reversal I think that it doesn't work as well on the hitting. Someone else will surely chime in on that aspect.

I'll be moving to inverted on my RPB soon and have decided that personally I'm going to stick with the Ellen rather than trying to navigate different pips and sponge options, but if you find an interesting success I'll have to think even more!

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 Post subject: Re: Penhold Anti or LP?
PostPosted: 02 May 2018, 13:52 
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Reniculous wrote:
I've certainly spent a fair amount of time wondering the exact same thing, and if you get a more definitive answer on this I'll be soaking up that info as well.

My thoughts based on experience and reading to this point:

Passive reversal isn't as strong currently as it was? This seems to be the general idea that I've been seeing around here, and beyond that - the super anti is more of a classical anti vs the newer flanti where the reversal seems to more of the focus.

I'm currently running the Tibhar Ellen Def as my pengrip forehand rubber, and I've found that I can attack with it fairly well using a stroke that is quite similar to my short pips stroke, and the aided reversal has been pretty nice for me as well. I think that the biggest benefit of the anti comes from this ability to hit flat or even slight top against incoming tops.

From some of the blogs and the conversations, it seems harder to find a long pip with as much total versatility, but you could focus in and be better as specific things very easily. I have read about some people having good success with just block and hit, so I think you could find it for sure.

However, if it has a ton of passive reversal I think that it doesn't work as well on the hitting. Someone else will surely chime in on that aspect.

I'll be moving to inverted on my RPB soon and have decided that personally I'm going to stick with the Ellen rather than trying to navigate different pips and sponge options, but if you find an interesting success I'll have to think even more!


Cool. I've seen some videos of people playing with the frictionless antis. It does look like better reversal, though the ball doesn't look materially different and I'm sure the tradeoff is less control or hitting ability.

I've done well so far deploying a blocking style against a player with very consistent loops/good placement, though they lack strong spin or variation in height/tempo. With the super anti the biggest strength for me is the ability to drop the ball very low and short and change directions. I've had some success but more often trouble flat hitting because of the total lack of spin. You're right about the SP stroke and I still often have a stroke between that and looping. If I hit in a controlled manner, it's not hard for my opponent to block; but if I hit hard with a bigger stroke, it will either be explosive or just miss.

The Ellen Def is somewhere between super anti and the yasaka anti I recall, that may be why you're having more success with the hitting.

Right now I believe the pure blocking style coupled with the TPB (can cover FH more easily) can be deceptively effective against anyone who doesn't loop "a)consistently and b)with strong spin", which is my main pool of opponents. And if they don't loop but play some weird soft/short balls, the super anti can move them around with little regard to spin. Because the style is so passive, it makes nervousness/mistakes less of a factor, which can really decide games at least for me. It does feel monotone at times, though, and playing passive players I don't see as big an edge.

The anti probably pulls everyone a little closer to my level, making my wins or losses less impressive but more consistent. I think someone has mentioned something similar with defensive styles or setups. I'm not sure if I'll stick with it long term. The lack of offensive spin throws me off esp. in practice.

Twiddling is a possibility, and I've tried it before, but I don't think it's really for me as it makes the style more complicated. At my roots I'm a player that prefers (or, can only handle :lol: ) simplicity.

I may just give LP a go too, though I anticipate more difficulty with control and a brand new "hand feel".

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 Post subject: Re: Penhold Anti or LP?
PostPosted: 02 May 2018, 14:17 
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Ma_Xin wrote:
Twiddling is a possibility, and I've tried it before, but I don't think it's really for me as it makes the style more complicated. At my roots I'm a player that prefers (or, can only handle :lol: ) simplicity.

I may just give LP a go too, though I anticipate more difficulty with control and a brand new "hand feel".



I actually share your thoughts on this as well, I don't particularly like twiddling, and while the biggest part of that is surely just lack of doing it and growing into it, I still find that because the stroke mechanics wouldn't be all too similar it seems like a recipe to make a mistake. And thus:

You could always try the RPF!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeoMVmhyjVo

I'm planning to mess with this just a littttleeeeeee once I get an inverted rubber (though picking an inverted rubber is going to be the death of me, too many conflicting advisements floating around!)

I know it's not the most stable shot in theory, but the video above is evidence that it can work up to a pretty solid level. Then you can have anti, or long pips like in the video, and also choose to use an inverted attack on either side with a stroke that is different enough to not mess with your rhythm. (Or so I feel!)

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 Post subject: Re: Penhold Anti or LP?
PostPosted: 03 May 2018, 08:33 
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Hahaha, tried that RPF a bit. It's decisively unnatural. Let us know how it works for you.

About inverted rubbers, I'm of the opinion that most of them don't differ too much within their tacky or non-tacky camps. I recently found regular H3 (a good sheet tho) slightly more stable than non-tacky rubbers and able to produce stronger spin on RPB. I haven't had much luck with tenergies though.

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 Post subject: Re: Penhold Anti or LP?
PostPosted: 03 May 2018, 11:11 
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I tend to put inverted rubbers into 2 camps: brush loop rubbers and non-brush loop rubbers.

Personally I've always used non brush loop rubbers for rpb (grip rubbers) as I felt they worked better for a short action.

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 Post subject: Re: Penhold Anti or LP?
PostPosted: 03 May 2018, 14:29 
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Where I play there's someone still using bare wood on the reverse side. (Actually it's red "carbon fiber" vinyl sticker.) In the old days people used (and were allowed to use) bare wood on the reverse side as a change-up. In the beginning he'd use it occasionally, now he uses it maybe 40% of the time! Maybe 90% of the time for serve return. He can now chop and chop-block with it. What is it like playing against it? You think long pips reverses spin? You've never played against bare wood! :lol: No, he doesn't "RPB" it - he just turns his wrist around to use the rear side of the blade. He can even do it on the forehand side as long as it's not too far on the forehand side.

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 Post subject: Re: Penhold Anti or LP?
PostPosted: 06 May 2018, 07:50 
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Silver wrote:
I tend to put inverted rubbers into 2 camps: brush loop rubbers and non-brush loop rubbers.

Personally I've always used non brush loop rubbers for rpb (grip rubbers) as I felt they worked better for a short action.


That's right. Grip rubbers probably work better against higher level opponents in fast rallies, if you have good technique. The brushy H3 works well for me because it allows more margin of error, i.e. if I misjudge the depth a bit and contact it thin, it will become a spinny, slow loop, and my opponents do not like that.

iskandar taib wrote:
Where I play there's someone still using bare wood on the reverse side. (Actually it's red "carbon fiber" vinyl sticker.) In the old days people used (and were allowed to use) bare wood on the reverse side as a change-up. In the beginning he'd use it occasionally, now he uses it maybe 40% of the time! Maybe 90% of the time for serve return. He can now chop and chop-block with it. What is it like playing against it? You think long pips reverses spin? You've never played against bare wood! :lol: No, he doesn't "RPB" it - he just turns his wrist around to use the rear side of the blade. He can even do it on the forehand side as long as it's not too far on the forehand side.

Iskandar


Interesting. Tried playing with bare wood today. Definitely feels a lot like Anti, without the slowness when I hit hard. But prone to errors as the throw is basically zero. It would be more fun if this were still legal.

Ordered my first LP... DHS C8 Ox red. Will see how it works out. The hope is that it'll be a little weirder than super anti while also easier and somewhat faster in drives.

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 Post subject: Re: Penhold Anti or LP?
PostPosted: 06 May 2018, 08:36 
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Ma_Xin wrote:
Ordered my first LP... DHS C8 Ox red. Will see how it works out. The hope is that it'll be a little weirder than super anti while also easier and somewhat faster in drives.


That's exciting! I very nearly ordered C8 with sponge some years ago, but ended up going with the C7 instead because I thought it would suit my needs a little better at the time.

I hope it goes well for you!

I've heard that it's very good for closer to the table play but could lose some effectiveness if used for anything but chopping as you step back (which should be fine since you like the table!)

Be sure to let us know how it goes when it gets in!

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 Post subject: Re: Penhold Anti or LP?
PostPosted: 13 May 2018, 09:31 
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Reniculous wrote:
Ma_Xin wrote:
Ordered my first LP... DHS C8 Ox red. Will see how it works out. The hope is that it'll be a little weirder than super anti while also easier and somewhat faster in drives.


That's exciting! I very nearly ordered C8 with sponge some years ago, but ended up going with the C7 instead because I thought it would suit my needs a little better at the time.

I hope it goes well for you!

I've heard that it's very good for closer to the table play but could lose some effectiveness if used for anything but chopping as you step back (which should be fine since you like the table!)

Be sure to let us know how it goes when it gets in!


I've got an update. Happy to report that C8 works really well!

I have the C8 on a Sense 7.6 blade (quite fast) and H3 on the other side. Practiced on the robot for a few days and today went to the club. Played 3 matches against opponents with decent levels.

Summary of C8:
* Great control as advertised
* Passive reversal looks pretty strong to me. It's only average on Revspin, so I can only imagine how nasty the LPs above it are. :lol: Some of those are banned now though.
* Hitting surpassed my expectations. I can hit pretty hard and the pips feel like they have 'grip'. Definitely way faster than super anti on the same blade. I haven't played with proper SP but this is how I envisioned hitting with SP...
* Chopping is ok in my limited experience.
* No cons so far.

A few other things:
* I serve with inverted on FH then twiddle sometimes. I am still a little slow, but since LP involves much blocking, it's not a big issue, and I even hit successfully sometimes with a half-ready grip.
* I definitely love serve receive now. I didn't miss even against from what I can tell great serves. I may pop it up sometimes, but even there it's not always 'dead' as the spin reversal or unusual placement can cause the opponent to miss.
* Super anti feels somewhere between C8 and inverted. One strength of anti is blocking powerful loops - I can see potentially using that against high-level opponents who are used to LP.

First match was an experienced penholder who knows how to play against LP. Other than in practice, he didn't show much discomfort against LP. He won 3-0, but my scores weren't terrible and one game was close. After the match he said he served/hit mainly no-spin balls so I had no spin to work with, and that is definitely the right strategy. I'll need to see what's a way to counter that, though I'm sure I'd have lost worse with inverted. I still hit some winners with the LP - the speed tended to surprise people a bit. He also missed some half chances probably due to the LP.

Second match was a shakehander. He plays with the next LP guy a lot (?) so I'm not sure why he's still not used to it. His serves are good, the ones to my FH are really short and I missed half of them due to slow footwork. Otherwise, keeping the ball in play and he'll miss or pop up a ball that I can kill with either LP or RPB. I won 6-0.

Last match was very interesting. It was a shakehander with the same rubbers as mine but on opposite sides! He can loop consistently with decent power/spin (if he sees a chance; he uses a lot of LP), and that is the main reason he was able to beat me 3-1. My FH was better than usual and thus able to get the second game off him. His serves are better than mine. When it was LP to LP, it was pretty funny with all the no-spin (probably neither one of us can really tell?) balls going around and neither one daring to make a move. These fly off easily if hit hard. I still tend to miss first a bit more though, so I lost the 4th game narrowly. I'm sure I have room to grow here as I get more familiar with the LP.

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