OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Hi there

I'm new to table tennis and it would be great if you helped me.

From viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2349:


Could you please clarify that rule (in more details) for curious TT beginners:

1. where does that stereotype (or is it?) of the "right" equipment come from?
2. whether there are any pros of using anti (and list all pros in case applicable);
3. list all those cons and effects breaking the rule may cause;

Note: I'd like to know about my setup as much as possible, but I'll raise other topics if that's more suitable,
because other rules I broke as well (DEF blade, 2.0mm rubber thickness). Please suggest me corresponding topics
as I'm new to your forum, and could not find the best place for a such post (not sure about the volume of info from replies)

Thanks,

These rules (that you are 'violating') are not hard rules - and no one is going to arrest you for breaking them. It's your hobby, go wild.

You can do fine with DEF blade and 2.0 sponge (in fact they kind of cancel each other) - it's more like "don't get a 'speed demon' setup" which will allow for occasional very satisfying fast un-returnable smash, but typically would stunt your progress. Even fast setup is OK in some cases - if you have plenty of coaching, for instance, (most beginners don't).

As far as 'no antispin' portion of generic advice: true beginner typically has little idea what TT is like at a decent club level, what are canonical shots, styles available etc. Starting with antispin (or LP) is more or less locking you into a specific play style, especially at a lower level (IMHO, of course). It will help you with some things a lot (serve receive, easy points from opponents unfamiliar with anti), but will create some vulnerabilities as well (dreaded no spin balls to your BH etc.), which better players will exploit with ease.

In the end it depends on what are you trying to achieve. You can have fun with pretty much any TT combo (double inverted, hardbat, SP, LP, anti on both sides - you name it).

As far as pros with anti: look up Dan Seemiller (he has unique style in many ways but his peak was quite a few years back), Amelie Solia, Jamila Laurentis (sp?), Luka Mladenovic from a modern generation (browse videos in Antispin/LP section, thread names usually call out anti players). They are pros, though - lower level play looks very different. Oh, and there are different types of anti spin rubbers ( truly frictionless and 'not so-much', or whatever it's called).

_________________
USATT: 1807 | League: 1887

There was a time (around the 1970s-80s) when a LOT of top players used anti. We're not talking about the relatively bouncy antis of today, either - back then they had the likes of Sriver Killer. Why was this? The advent of the loop drive, and the use of the old 38mm ball. Eventually people learned to deal with loops.

I agree with the part about avoiding Anti (and long pips) if you're a beginner. There's actually a web site that promotes this - they say to use long pips on the backhand to control serve returns. If you dothis I think you'll stunt your development - you'll NEVER learn to return serves. Long pips and anti are something you might want to try once you've reached a certain level as a weapon, but they're not something to start out with just because you can't figure out simple serves. I suppose, on the other hand, if you've been playing club table tennis for ten years and have had coaching and STILL can't read and return serves, then maybe you could try long pips or anti for that reason.

Iskandar

New moment I'd like to be clarified is how important in terms of priority is learning to return serves.

At the same time I'll try to show the way I look into it (trying to protect beginnerish opinion:))

If you take basics TT players should learn, you may find some kinds of loaders similar to:

1. Grip
2. Stance
3. Footwork
4. Forehand Drive
5. Backhand Drive
6. Backhand Push
7. Forehand Push
8. Serve
9. Return of serve
10. Match Play

Source: https://www.experttabletennis.com/how-t ... le-tennis/

1. To begin with, why did I get into table tennis? I played some times and realized that I enjoy it. What exactly do I enjoy? I like the process of playing that game and learning new things. Why did I raise that discussion? It helps find ways of learning which are more suitable for me, which means different work on skills may bring the joy (not just returning of serves with normal rubbers).
2. How did I came to the idea of anti. My coach told me Serve is 50% of the game, which means (from my understanding), the other 50% is return of serve.
I like the game now, I'm not playing professionally, I play mostly with guys in the office, who may be good, but self - taught, who can have non-beginners' equipment (e.g very fast), with which they can reduce the sense of the game and turn it out in some kind of competition.
How anti fits into the picture? Well, it helps a lot keeping the ball on the table, allows me to drill/practice things I'm learning with my coach and at the same time to maintain sense of game.
3. In case of not making long-term plans on TT life there are whole word of things to be learned as beginners (or could be learned, note: I understand that different coaches may have different opinions on basics) before getting to the level where you need to be very good at Return of serve with "normal" rubber, unless you are learning/playing just because of that skill
4. How much time is it needed to develop all those important skills as beginners parallel or how possible is it in general? Or how soon are tt players allowed to use non-traditional equipment? 10 years? How frequently should we practice? Is it possible to find any shortcuts here? Seems like weak points do exist either by design or by accident almost everywhere, that's why it feels more natural to choose some kind of limited path of development, but which will help you grow faster even at the beginning (like those shakehand grips preferred instead of penhold because the former one is a lot easier to get started with, I know, there are other reasons also) and will have it's own strong points as well.
5. Feels like antis may bring you into the game with tt players of the level higher that yours, which may help you improve faster (I believe if you do things right, it will help them as well). Or it is possible to practice those traditional isolation drills with another side of the racket using normal rubber (even returns of serves). Or later you may simple switch to another setup which will help covering weak parts of your game.
6. Another big thought about TT is how could (it may be very different big topic) anybody be good at sending ball anywhere before learning to receive it? For me receiving takes priority, which means my scope is learning to keep the ball on the table (again anti fits into that picture). The idea is working on your own strokes while learning to handle your opponent's, but gradually increasing complexity.
7. And the last one not easy to digest for me is when in such complex disciplines (like tt) there are formulas "one rule fits all". People are different and for somebody the path of learning to return serves may just begin with anti rubber as a first step to come later to those complex returns using normallish rubbers, for another it may simply be a blocker into progress.
Initially I thought there were some serious issues behind violation of those rules.

That's how I see it, feel free to correct me

Thank you,

I think the logic of not starting with anti is that to be a really good anti player, you must understand spin and what your anti does to the incoming spin. Just putting a lot of balls back on the table is obviously important too, and you will advance fast that way at first. But at a certain level you may get stuck.

It's true you could always flip your bat over and use the inverted to get a feel for the spin. Or if it isn't too expensive (don't need to spend more than $50 or $60) you could get a double-inverted setup and practice sometimes with it, while still using anti on your main bat. A lot.of double-inverted players do that for a little while with LP to understand what it does from actually using it. You would kind of be doing that in reverse.

_________________
Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono

For amateurs, I think it's fine to start out with anti or LP.

If you like the style, why not? Hell, even people who use inverted still suck 10 years later! Just because you use the grippy rubbers doesn't mean you'll play anything like a pro! Without coaching... any style is fairly difficult. At least with anti, the garage player gimmicky strokes work out well enough. And you can scale up to most levels you'll ever encounter.

I think too many people are INVERTED INVERTED!!

_________________
SOULSPIN CUSTOM BLADES
Fh: Spinny rubber
Bh: Not so spinny rubber...

I started with anti in the 70's when it was quite common. It had more advantages than today due to the 38mm ball and you could use the same coloured rubber on both sides. Even so, as a beginner my father and coach tried in vain to get me to develop my BH so that I could perform all strokes on both sides. Only when that failed and I stubbornly resisted to do anything other than defend on my BH was anti suggested as an option.

There are also some social disadvantages for beginners. Anti by its nature frustrates and disturbs your opponent's style of play. Other beginners will prefer to practice with those who have 'normal' rubbers.

_________________
2. S&T Black & White / Armstrong SH-I 1.8 / TSP Curl P3 Alpha R OX

The reason is because, even if you're destined to suck, you'll end up sucking more if you never learn to deal with spin. If you remain in the basement and play with basement-level players, yeah sure, but if you want to at least get to, say, 1500 level (about a middling-low club player) you will have to deal with spin because even this level of player will be able to put enough spin and variation on their serves to bamboozle you even if you have anti or long pips on the backhand. If you learn to deal with the spin first and THEN go to long pips or anti then you'll be a better player overall. Besides, if you really ARE a beginner you don't really have any idea how good you'll eventually get, especially if you're you're young and fit, so why jeopardize your future development for the purpose of dominating in the basement?

"Amateur" is a widely abused term. To be a "professional" you'd actually have to be making a LIVING playing table tennis. The vast majority of even extremely good players aren't good enough to do this. To most of us (even those rated 2200+), table tennis is a money SINK rather than a source of income.

Iskandar

Well, anti on one side and inverted on the other? Then you can learn to play with spin and also use the anti effectively!

I'm not arguing that you should never learn how to deal with spin... just that you can still do so even with anti on one side from the start.

I don't (and no one else for that matter! ) consider myself a great player, but with my anti I can still return serves from 2,200+ rated players -- whereas with my grippy side, they can bamboozle me fairly often. With my anti I can at least play back a safe ball, instead of losing outright.

So if you learn to read spin with the forehand and utilize that knowledge with the backhand... it seems to do pretty well. Having said that, I did start out using inverted both sides! So can't even use myself as an example. But even with anti, you still have to read the spin if you want your returns to do well. You can always do the paddy cake return -- however those will get smashed most of the time. If you read top/back spin properly, then you can decide when to attack hard and when to block soft etc.

I play against guys who use anti, but don't read spin -- and yes, it is easy to bait their returns

_________________
SOULSPIN CUSTOM BLADES
Fh: Spinny rubber
Bh: Not so spinny rubber...

My experience is that equipment with muted sensitivity to spin can make the game more fun for lower level players....

I have played on and off for multiple decades.
I tried for a least a full decade of that to use inverted while learning to read spin… but “the light-bulb never came on”…
I have quit the game multiple times out of frustration over not being able to return serve month-in-and month-out and not being able to detect what to do about it….
Some of this is not having access to players down at my level….where their serves may have enough spin to be educational but are of “poor” enough quality and deception that some actual points get played...
The typical clubs available to me are where “winner stays” and the likes of me spend 2/3 of the time waiting in line for their next ass-kicking…
(Ironically, at tournaments is where I was more likely to play against someone close to my level)

One day, after several matches of getting maybe one serve per game back into play…
I used a hard-bat….
Suddenly, I could return serve…
Granted I was still getting soundly beaten (score-wise)...but my opponent had to make a 3rd ball attack…
Getting beaten by 3rd ball attack is WAY MORE FUN then getting beaten by 1st ball attack…
Score-wise I still get beat way more than I win...but I believe each point lasts an average of 1-to-2 strokes longer than if I used inverted…and therefore more fun for me….

There is some stigma that make a few (by not all) players reluctant to play me…
Sometimes they don’t fear me (the “pips player”) so much as they fear having to adjust back to playing against inverted…

_________________
Blade from Juic Smasher pre-made
FH and BH: Yasaka A-1-2

I hate playing at places like that. You never get a chance to learn, or even play very much because the top players will keep winning, and hog the tables. I can see why someone would quit playing under such circumstances.

You still (if you want to really get good at it) be able to read spin to play with a hardbat, I think. And there are people who play hardbat full-time who are rated over 2000. The problem I have with starting someone out on hardbat or long pips or anti is that you don't know how good this player is going to get - especially if he or she is a junior and has access to coaching. If you're restricted to playing in basements or places like you describe, that would be a different issue, perhaps.

Iskandar

Yes, Iskandar,
I agree that a beginner (especially a younger one) with access to coaching and/or to opponents that (intentionally or not) allow him to play extended points should probably not start with hardbat or anti.

My current club, despite the "winner stays" format, seems to have a culture more welcoming to lower level players thru some combination of:
more good players that have a "better attitude" toward playing lower level types
(maybe I have a better attitude toward them, too),
a few more lower level players for us to play each other occasionally,
and
maybe I'm getting better myself (at a glacially slow pace, but better non-the-less).

I do feel like I am learning, just a little, to read and react correctly to spin.
I can often tell myself 5 seconds after the point is over what the spin was and what I should have done...
which is progress....because it used to be 30 seconds afterward....

I often find it helpful to approach the matches with the attitude of
"this is not a MATCH, but just a drill, where we just happen to keep score so we know when we're done".

Thanks to all my fellow players who encourage me.

_________________
Blade from Juic Smasher pre-made
FH and BH: Yasaka A-1-2

One thing you might try (if you can find one or two others who are amenable) would be to play "set-piece games". Agree beforehand on the type of spin you'll use for the serve, and where the serve is going to go. You might then also agree on the response to the serve. And then the server would practice a shot he's trying to learn, and then after that anything goes. For example. the serve would be long backspin to the forehand. Then the receiver pushes long to the forehand, and then the server tries to loop the push (something I, personally, have trouble with - I only make 50% of these shots). And then the receiver would either block or hit it back and try to win the point. Perhaps play the game like this until one player hits 9 points, and then play normally to end the game.

Iskandar