OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
Live Table Tennis Videos Table Tennis News Live OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 28 Apr 2017, 10:08


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 85 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2014, 08:41 
Offline
Dark Knight
Dark Knight
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2006, 12:34
Posts: 31119
Location: Adelaide, AU
Has thanked: 1367 times
Been thanked: 832 times
Blade: Trinity Carbon
FH: Victas VS > 401
BH: Dornenglanz OX
Back on topic please...

Here is the Brett's video about recovering from the Reverse Pendulum Backspin Serve:



Some very useful pointers here, applicable to recovery from any serve. :up:

_________________
OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Table Tennis Reviews / Articles | Table Guide | Robot Guide | Re-Impact Blades
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide | Novel way to glue OX pips


Top
 Profile  
 


Don't want to see this advertisement? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!

PostPosted: 16 Nov 2014, 10:27 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 11 Mar 2013, 21:12
Posts: 849
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 37 times
I was facing similar issues when transitioning from predominantly pushing to attacking 3rd ball. What I found most useful other than taking a natural step back as part of the service is preparing for the return by observing the opponent and keeping loose while anticipating your the first move. The same advice against watching your own shot too much applies generally, but even more critical here since for example there's greater danger in the decision to step around so close to the table than in usual rally (and you should know even better where the serve is landing).

In TT there's a common compromise between staying light vs planting for power, and it's useful to favor the former in the decision (vs execution) heavy early-point. The easiest way to get a feel for success is recognize the intent to make a good decision & act on it quickly, and compare to when such action was possible when replaying the point back (in your head or otherwise).

For example, preparation to defend or counterattack can commence soon as the opponent starts stepping to attack the serve. Or sometimes the direction of attack is unclear until much latter so commitment to left-right movement has to be stayed (though this is uncommon until higher level when players start to hide their motivation, so it pays to pay close attention). IMO it's perhaps a good idea to overcommit a bit at first and then dial back as needed since most club players instead suffer from hesitation & become too reactionary.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2014, 11:31 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 2399
Has thanked: 185 times
Been thanked: 212 times
Blade: Xiom Vega Pro FL
FH: Nexy Karis M B Max
BH: Nexy Karis M R Max
So that no one gets confused by mumbo jumbo from the faceless, here is a high level player discussing the topic in practical detail:


_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2014, 15:48 
Offline
Goes to 11
Goes to 11
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2014, 20:27
Posts: 5232
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 575 times
haggisv wrote:
Back on topic please...

Here is the Brett's video about recovering from the Reverse Pendulum Backspin Serve:



Some very useful pointers here, applicable to recovery from any serve. :up:


Yup, very useful indeed. I think I do the "elbow too close to the body" thing, I'll watch out for that next time I play.

I've been trying to figure out why people use the (assuming a right handed player) "right leg stretched behind" stance when serving. Most internationals seem to use it for forehand serves. Of the exceptions, I've noticed, is Fukuhara Ai - she stands more at right angles to the table. The "right leg stretched behind" stance makes it more difficult to get into the ready position, since you have to make a half turn with your body and bring your right foot a long way forward. My theory is that it's a holdover from hidden serves, as are serves done close to the body. I've always used a stance like Fukuhara Ai's - the body is facing to the right, feet facing the same direction. Then it just takes a small quarter turn to get into the ready position.

Iskandar


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2014, 19:00 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 21:10
Posts: 831
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 77 times
iskandar taib wrote:
haggisv wrote:
Back on topic please...

Here is the Brett's video about recovering from the Reverse Pendulum Backspin Serve:



Some very useful pointers here, applicable to recovery from any serve. :up:


Yup, very useful indeed. I think I do the "elbow too close to the body" thing, I'll watch out for that next time I play.

I've been trying to figure out why people use the (assuming a right handed player) "right leg stretched behind" stance when serving. Most internationals seem to use it for forehand serves.

Iskandar


Hi Iskandar,

It makes you lower and the time isn't a big issue...you can still get into good position by the time the ball hits the opponent's side. Ai Fukuhara is tiny so she doesn't need to get lower.

Regards, Brett

_________________
ttEDGE.com Professional online coaching
YouTube table tennis videos by Brett Clarke


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2014, 22:25 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 11 Mar 2013, 21:12
Posts: 849
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 37 times
NextLevel wrote:
So that no one gets confused by mumbo jumbo from the faceless, here is a high level player discussing the topic in practical detail:


If you can't understand what it means, please consider asking Brett Clarke for a explanation.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2014, 22:48 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 11 Mar 2013, 21:12
Posts: 849
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 37 times
Brett Clarke wrote:
Hi Iskandar,

It makes you lower and the time isn't a big issue...you can still get into good position by the time the ball hits the opponent's side. Ai Fukuhara is tiny so she doesn't need to get lower.

Regards, Brett


It's technically more for stability. The straighter leg limits the degrees of freedom when you adjust height with the left. To demonstrate this try doing the exactly same serve with the same right leg bent near the left one.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2014, 23:05 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 2399
Has thanked: 185 times
Been thanked: 212 times
Blade: Xiom Vega Pro FL
FH: Nexy Karis M B Max
BH: Nexy Karis M R Max
Brett Clarke wrote:
Hi Iskandar,

It makes you lower and the time isn't a big issue...you can still get into good position by the time the ball hits the opponent's side. Ai Fukuhara is tiny so she doesn't need to get lower.

Regards, Brett


So by consistently taking a lower serving stance, I could make even my current backhand serves better? So just widen the legs when serving? (I am not sure how I would recover without straightening out given how I play though...)

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2014, 08:14 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 21:10
Posts: 831
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 77 times
NextLevel wrote:
Brett Clarke wrote:
Hi Iskandar,

It makes you lower and the time isn't a big issue...you can still get into good position by the time the ball hits the opponent's side. Ai Fukuhara is tiny so she doesn't need to get lower.

Regards, Brett


So by consistently taking a lower serving stance, I could make even my current backhand serves better? So just widen the legs when serving? (I am not sure how I would recover without straightening out given how I play though...)


One advantage of serving with the backhand is it can put you in playing position immediately, without having to perform the recovery explained in video PR 08. I would be trying to get into my best playing position and doing the serve from there. Leg's comfortably wide and bent and keep the head down and level during and after the serve. Straightening the legs after the serve isn't good. There are variations of course. See D. Ovtcharov for example. He is moving around, trying to create momentum in other ways.

Part of the magic of W. Henzell's Tomahawk serve is the incredible position it puts him in for his backhand oriented game. People make mistakes off his serve as they can see his amazing, early position in their peripheral. I once slowed down his regular Pendulum serve and he is later on the recovery than say V. Samsonov or a Chinese.

There are no absolutes in this game and there are exceptions everywhere. It's important to work things into the context of your own game, especially if you have specific limitations. For example, in Greg's recovery video above, he doesn't want to cross his legs for the wide forehand. Most top players are thrilled to cross for that wide forehand, so they take a more aggressive position. But for Greg, it doesn't fit into HIS game well, so he's had a good think about it and shared it with others. I found his video relaxing btw. I like his style.

_________________
ttEDGE.com Professional online coaching
YouTube table tennis videos by Brett Clarke


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2014, 15:49 
Offline
Goes to 11
Goes to 11
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2014, 20:27
Posts: 5232
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 575 times
YES!!! Keeping the elbow away from the body in the ready stance helps a LOT - I tried this yesterday. I didn't even realize I was holding the elbow up next to the body or that it was an issue until I watched that video. Thanks!!

Serving stance - I'm not short, on the other hand I'm not terribly tall, either (5' 10" or so). So maybe I don't need to stretch the leg out back to get low enough, I can easily serve from below table height (illegal, of course) if I wanted to by bending forwards somewhat. Hmmm....

The first time I ever saw anyone serve in that right-leg-to-the-rear position what the first time someone used a hidden serve on me (probably 1998-99). I'd been playing for many years before that, and had been to many tournaments and watched a lot of people play, but that was the first time I ever saw it done. I'd just started playing again after several years of not playing, so I missed the beginnings of hidden serves. (Missed almost the entire Waldner era, come to think of it..) One of Danny Seemiller's students moved to town and we were hitting around in a dorm basement, and when he did that serve it shocked the heck out of me. What WAS that?? The ball just popped out from behind his elbow. To do those serves you had to turn your back to the opponent and serve close to your body. No one did that before, but people continue to do it today. That was also the first time I saw a reverse pendulum serve - I suppose it's a lot easier when you're turned away from the opponent in that position, and a lot more useful when you could hide it, as a variation.

Iskandar


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2014, 16:31 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 21:10
Posts: 831
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 77 times
iskandar taib wrote:
YES!!! Keeping the elbow away from the body in the ready stance helps a LOT - I tried this yesterday. I didn't even realize I was holding the elbow up next to the body or that it was an issue until I watched that video. Thanks!!
Iskandar


iskandar taib, if you can take one or two good things away from my content, I'm happy with that. Elbow position is a big topic which I will cover in video format, of course. I'm still struggling to understand words on a screen. I think I need to go back to school :^)

_________________
ttEDGE.com Professional online coaching
YouTube table tennis videos by Brett Clarke


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2014, 16:47 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 11 Mar 2013, 21:12
Posts: 849
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 37 times
> So maybe I don't need to stretch the leg out back to get low enough, I can easily serve from below table height (illegal, of course) if I wanted to by bending forwards somewhat. Hmmm....

You get better sight and control when the serve is near your chest like T-rex rather than off to the side or low.

I'm not a fan of rigid forms like elbow, hands, knee angle in this position or that. Compared to a loose natural stance it will be worse unless maybe the form is always transfixed to the correct start position, since you'll have to loosen anyway to move any significant distance for the ball quickly. Though I guess a more correct fixed starting position is better than a wrong rigid starting position.

If you carefully observe & contrast typical (over)coached adults and those considered "natural" at the sport by far the greatest difference is the effortless grace of movement compared to the robotic result of trying to adhere to numerous guidelines. The typical argument is that this supposed natural talent isn't something which can be learned but I can attest that it could with the right motivation. It just takes some introspection & methodology outside the typical "stand here, swing there" curriculum, and tends to open a lot of doors to naturally good form sans rote drilling.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2014, 02:15 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 2399
Has thanked: 185 times
Been thanked: 212 times
Blade: Xiom Vega Pro FL
FH: Nexy Karis M B Max
BH: Nexy Karis M R Max
Brett Clarke wrote:
One advantage of serving with the backhand is it can put you in playing position immediately, without having to perform the recovery explained in video PR 08. I would be trying to get into my best playing position and doing the serve from there. Leg's comfortably wide and bent and keep the head down and level during and after the serve. Straightening the legs after the serve isn't good. There are variations of course. See D. Ovtcharov for example. He is moving around, trying to create momentum in other ways.

Part of the magic of W. Henzell's Tomahawk serve is the incredible position it puts him in for his backhand oriented game. People make mistakes off his serve as they can see his amazing, early position in their peripheral. I once slowed down his regular Pendulum serve and he is later on the recovery than say V. Samsonov or a Chinese.

There are no absolutes in this game and there are exceptions everywhere. It's important to work things into the context of your own game, especially if you have specific limitations. For example, in Greg's recovery video above, he doesn't want to cross his legs for the wide forehand. Most top players are thrilled to cross for that wide forehand, so they take a more aggressive position. But for Greg, it doesn't fit into HIS game well, so he's had a good think about it and shared it with others. I found his video relaxing btw. I like his style.


Hmm... so maybe you should be teaching me the tomahawk serve? :P The principle is very helpful. In fact, I might be doing my backhand serve too far in the backhand corner. Will move more towards the middle of the table and try that out in a few matches today.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2014, 02:19 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 2399
Has thanked: 185 times
Been thanked: 212 times
Blade: Xiom Vega Pro FL
FH: Nexy Karis M B Max
BH: Nexy Karis M R Max
iskandar taib wrote:
YES!!! Keeping the elbow away from the body in the ready stance helps a LOT - I tried this yesterday. I didn't even realize I was holding the elbow up next to the body or that it was an issue until I watched that video. Thanks!!



Iskandar


Interesting that we both had the same exact Eureka moment about elbow position. I haven't had time to drill it in, but it will be a big focus of future video for my analysis.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2014, 08:49 
Offline
Smack Attack!
Smack Attack!
User avatar

Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 15:39
Posts: 3486
Location: Auckland New Zealand
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 50 times
agenthex wrote:
> So maybe I don't need to stretch the leg out back to get low enough, I can easily serve from below table height (illegal, of course) if I wanted to by bending forwards somewhat. Hmmm....

You get better sight and control when the serve is near your chest like T-rex rather than off to the side or low.

I'm not a fan of rigid forms like elbow, hands, knee angle in this position or that. Compared to a loose natural stance it will be worse unless maybe the form is always transfixed to the correct start position, since you'll have to loosen anyway to move any significant distance for the ball quickly. Though I guess a more correct fixed starting position is better than a wrong rigid starting position.

If you carefully observe & contrast typical (over)coached adults and those considered "natural" at the sport by far the greatest difference is the effortless grace of movement compared to the robotic result of trying to adhere to numerous guidelines. The typical argument is that this supposed natural talent isn't something which can be learned but I can attest that it could with the right motivation. It just takes some introspection & methodology outside the typical "stand here, swing there" curriculum, and tends to open a lot of doors to naturally good form sans rote drilling.

Most of the time I have no idea what you are trying to say, but it is not about being rigid or loose it's about learning as we go or getting some help (self analysed, getting coached, or advice from peers) rather than doing it wrong for ever, the other thing is what looks like rigid stance to you may look very natural to me or the person themselves,

_________________
Blade Ulmo Duality| FH Tibhar mx-p Black, Dawei 388D-1 red OX
NZ table tennis selector, ask a question
My Blog here..How table tennis objects are made
Table Tennis abbreviations, and acronyms


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 85 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next




All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2012 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group




Don't forget to 'LIKE' our forum on Facebook if you enjoy the content: