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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2011, 10:47 
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Very good post, thank you wturber! :clap:

wturber wrote:
Also, I don't think the ITTF cares all that much about possible backlashes from amateur table tennis players. I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear them say something like, "If your national organizations want to use celluloid, that's fine by us."

Yes that does sound strangely familiar :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2011, 13:18 
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I think I read somewhere that celluloid was plentiful because it was made from a substance plentiful in nature. I don't see any reason for change. If the current ball is imperfect, I think its only in longevity perhaps and the way its properties change as it ages. This is pretty common to most balls in sport, they wear. I think the TT ball is a pretty ingenious design and close to perfect as it is. A lot better than using a champagne cork :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2011, 16:01 
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RebornTTEvnglist wrote:
I think I read somewhere that celluloid was plentiful because it was made from a substance plentiful in nature. I don't see any reason for change. If the current ball is imperfect, I think its only in longevity perhaps and the way its properties change as it ages. This is pretty common to most balls in sport, they wear. I think the TT ball is a pretty ingenious design and close to perfect as it is. A lot better than using a champagne cork :lol:


I have zero problem with trying to develop a better ball. While the current celluloid ball is quite good, the seam is a flaw as compared to the ideal ball IMO. The ball does bounce a bit differently off of the seam than other parts of the ball. I notice this more with the hard surface of the table than with paddle to ball contact. At least I attribute the occasional odd bounces to that seam. I really don't know for sure. But a more consistent ball would be better IMO and a seamless design seems like a good approach.

My problem is with the justification and the claims about celluloid being banned. If it is being banned it should be simple to find the proposed laws or for the ITTF to simply point to them. That and moving forward with using the new ball in major tournaments before it has been vetted by a wide range of players and national associations.

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2011, 17:46 
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Yes there is the occasional odd bounce with the current ball. I guess it could be due to the seem, but I often put it down to different spin also. Could be a combination of both!? ;)

Any improvement to it may carry some other imperfection. I agree a good period of testing should be conducted before any permanent change is made.

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2011, 00:45 
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Wouldn't guitar picks be more at risk of bursting into flame than ping-pong balls? I mean, you are strumming them against metal, right? I have not EVER heard of a ping-pong ball even catching on fire. Though, if it did occasionally mid-rally, wouldn't that just attract more teenager and college age kids in? :lol: :lol: :lol: Let's hope the ITTF doesn't see that, or they will make us soak our table tennis balls in gasoline before we play (and still not let off on a VOC ban...).

Seriously, what is the reason? Maybe there IS going to be a celluloid ban (though if there were a ban on acetone or rubbing alcohol, it would stop more fires :lol: )...Maybe the ITTF are fabricating the whole thing. If so, I wish they had more integrity. Perhaps they had some misleading information. I know all of these have already been pointed out....but really, if the new ball is more durable (and not super expensive), maybe it'll be a good change! Maybe, if it IS faster, it'll be closer to the 38mm...though if, as some people say, it has less spin, then probably not. Whatever the case, we will have to get used to it. Try to be optimistic, at least! :)

But if the ITTF goes too far at some point, another international TT association might crop up... :?:

come to think of it, I didn't actually say much, did I? :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2011, 04:22 
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New ITTF statement: Sharara also indicated his intention of revising the ball size and composition once again. "The current plan of the ITTF is to prohibit the use of celluloid ball. Such move is because of two reasons. One is that celluloids are toxic and it will have an impact towards the factory workers. The second is that it is quite dangerous to transport since it highly flammable. The new ball will be seamless and China already counts with two factories that are working in the new ball, one owned by DHS, and the by Double Fish. It will be operational as soon as the London Olympics is over."

With regards to the size, Adam Sharara said that the new ball size would be increased. This is to give a chance to defensive players to overcome offensive players. If the ball is bigger, rallies will become slower so defensive players will have more chances to win points.


OMG. What a crock! We saw how a bigger, less spinny ball "helped" defenders before.

http://tabletennista.com/2011/8/sharara ... e-tennis//

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2011, 04:43 
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Bigger ball huh? Easiest way to make all paddles and rubbers optimized for the current ball obsolete... WTG Adham! :party: Can't wait to unleash the EJ beast in me again! :party: :party: :party:

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2011, 04:48 
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Wait a sec... What am I gonna do with USD$5,000.00 worth of robots and balls???!!! Booooo!!!!!!!


*Didn't Adham insist for years that the lack of defenders at world-class level has nothing to do with equipment, but will???!!! :^)


LEAVE THE BALL SIZE ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2011, 06:23 
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Well, at the moment there are more defenders at the top of the game, certainly among the women. But for how long? And how many defenders already have won a single title among the men? Even among the women? And it's not because there are more defenders at the top that they have a greater chance to reach the absolute top (winning titles, getting in the top 5 of the world,...).

What the ITTF does not understand, is that by lessening the speed of the game, they also are lessening the spin in the game, which is the main weapon of a defender. So, what they need to do, is to lessen the speed of the game (what they are trying to do now) AND to keep the amount of spin equal to that of a 38mm ball.

Having said that, once they highten the diameter of the ball, the game will slow down, but will speed up again due to technological advances in the offensive material. Defensive material will have less advancement and it will be even more difficult for defenders to keep up the pace (because of having less spin to slow down the game).

Only solution is to limit the speed of offensive material, but this will hurt table tennis companies too much and it just will not happen for this reason.

Maybe we just need to accept the reality: table tennis is becoming more and more table tennis. It might be a good moment to resurrect a new international federation where people are playing table tennis again.

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2011, 06:52 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
Quote:
New ITTF statement: Sharara also indicated his intention of revising the ball size and composition once again. "The current plan of the ITTF is to prohibit the use of celluloid ball. Such move is because of two reasons. One is that celluloids are toxic and it will have an impact towards the factory workers. The second is that it is quite dangerous to transport since it highly flammable. The new ball will be seamless and China already counts with two factories that are working in the new ball, one owned by DHS, and the by Double Fish. It will be operational as soon as the London Olympics is over."

With regards to the size, Adam Sharara said that the new ball size would be increased. This is to give a chance to defensive players to overcome offensive players. If the ball is bigger, rallies will become slower so defensive players will have more chances to win points.


OMG. What a crock! We saw how a bigger, less spinny ball "helped" defenders before.

http://tabletennista.com/2011/8/sharara ... e-tennis//


The new ball size is just a slightly different tolerance being applied to a basic 40mm ball size. It is still a 40mm ball. The +/- is just somewhat different. At least that's what's been said so far.

From what I've been able to discern, the concern for the factory workers is either misplaced or misunderstood. Sharara has likened the hazard as being similar to that with asbestos. A Japanese celluloid manufacturing company has said directly that the risks are not the same.

Celluloid is nitro-cellulose in a solid solution with camphor. Nitro cellulose is a standard component of smokeless gunpowder which surely is going to be continued to be manufactured. Camphor is so dangerous that they put it in Vicks Vap-o-rub. A worldwide ban on celluloid but no such ban on nitro-cellulose in gunpowder? Doesn't make much sense.

Keep in mind that we have trucks going down the road filled with everything from liquid petroleum gas, gasoline, various alcohols, and a whole range of dangerous substances. Also keep in mind that wood and paper are flammable. There are ways to deal with these basic hazards. We are better at this today than we have ever been.

From where I sit the risks of using celluloid seem to be getting exaggerated - even to the point of misinformation. For instance the claim of a world-wide celluloid ban. I can't find any evidence of it. Then there's the claim of asbestos-like hazards for celluloid. Similarly no evidence and also a manufacturer saying it just isn't so. Nitro-cellulose is made with cellulose (cotton fiber, plant material) and nitric acid. BTW, the nitro-cellulose used in table tennis balls has lower levels of nitrates than most other nitro-celluloses. That's why table tennis balls simply burn pretty much like paper and don't explode or burst into flame. It also doesn't disintegrate over time creating a hazard of spontaneous combustion as was the case with old film stock.

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2011, 06:57 
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wturber wrote:
The new ball size is just a slightly different tolerance being applied to a basic 40mm ball size. It is still a 40mm ball. The +/- is just somewhat different. At least that's what's been said so far.

If this is the case, it seems strange that Adham would consider this new size to be such a big benefit to defensive players. On another thread, which Adham participates in, I asked him what the new size will be. Hopefully the answer won't be 42mm.

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2011, 06:59 
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Lorre wrote:

Maybe we just need to accept the reality: table tennis is becoming more and more table tennis. It might be a good moment to resurrect a new international federation where people are playing table tennis again.


Actually, I think it is quite the opposite. Table tennis is so spin dominated that it has become less and less like "tennis" over the years.

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2011, 07:29 
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wturber wrote:
Actually, I think it is quite the opposite. Table tennis is so spin dominated that it has become less and less like "tennis" over the years.


That's why we pip players have less and less spin to work with, the 40mm ball meant less rotation and third ball attacks are the new standard of the modern play... 8) I can't follow you there, wturber!

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2011, 12:34 
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Celluloid ban...what a joke!
This is a 100% made-up by Mr. Sha.....
There is nothing about celluloid ban on the internet and Mr. Sha made it sounded "so real".
He is now a true "politician" that we just simply can not take anything he says seriously.

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 Post subject: Re: Celluloid banned
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2011, 13:16 
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My impression is the ITTF are a law and body only unto themselves, a dictatorship! They seem delerious with power over the sport and seem to listen to no-one. As others have said a worldwide celluloid ban is a fallacy. If there is a shred of evidence that celluloid is as dangerous as asbestos, please show us and I will support such a ban immediately....my father died from asbestos poisoning/cancer! But I see no such danger. Even if there was, it gives no cause to change ball size...AGAIN!! I'd be really interested to see Adham come on here and "discuss" this with us, but I fear all we will get is lip service at best.

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