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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2015, 15:43 
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Blondie wrote:
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I think it's hard since the sport is to boring to watch for an not interested TT player. To much dead time during the points.

If this is the case then why isn't this "dead time" used in telecasts (or professionally edited videos) for slow motion replays and explanation of what has just occurred to the layman? I assume lack of money will be the explanation.


Sorry sorry meant of course between the points!

Cricket is a sport that would have considerably more 'dead time' in between the action, and this sport is hugely popular in some countries.

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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2015, 18:36 
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Most sports that are popular in their own countries are subsidized by their own government, one way or another. By this I mean the government officials mandated that such sports are included in schools. Without this official support, any niche sport will never become popular and mainstream. Table tennis is popular in many Asian countries (much more so than any European country with known league systems) simply because someone in their own government wanted this sport to be included in schools, not because the kids and their parents demand it. Here in the U.S., baseball, basketball, tennis, track and field, swimming, football, soccer, etc. are offered in public schools not because of public demand, but because the government officials wanted them to be from the beginning of time. Without government support in this manner, any sport will never really take off.

As I have suggested previously numerous times, USATT should have actively lobbying school officials long time ago in big cities such as L.A., SF and NY to get table tennis into public schools. Badminton and golf were able to make significant inroads in these areas, but I have not seen USATT make any effort to make something similar for table tennis. The huge Asian American populations in these areas are more than eager to take up table tennis if offered in schools. This is your "foundation" RIGHT THERE Larry Hodges. As all of you know, since 90%+ of all "serious" table tennis cadets and juniors in the U.S. in the past twenty years have come from Asian immigrant families in these three major metropolitan areas, it is the logical choice to expand table tennis in these areas first, by trying as hard as USATT possibly can to get table tennis into these areas' public schools. Some USATT officials have replied to me by saying since these kids in the three major metropolitan areas already have supportive parents and clubs, they are "set" and don't need any additional boost, so any resource USATT has should be devoted in "developing" other areas. This is a great misconception. As I have been involved in various kid's training programs in L.A. in the past six years, I know how expensive it is for any parent to pay for private table tennis training. A large number of kids in our area with great interest in taking up table tennis seriously simply can't afford to take private lessons from us, or having their parents drive them to clubs two/three times a week to train. If table tennis is offered in their own schools (so it's free and no driving needed) it will become extremely popular, and the number of serious cadet and junior players in the U.S. will easily multiply by tenfold. Isn't that what USATT wants? This is by far the best return of investment USATT can make.


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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2015, 02:23 
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roundrobin wrote:
As I have suggested previously numerous times, USATT should have actively lobbying school officials long time ago in big cities such as L.A., SF and NY to get table tennis into public schools. Badminton and golf were able to make significant inroads in these areas, but I have not seen USATT make any effort to make something similar for table tennis.


They did this repeatedly in the 1980s and 1990s in school systems all over the country. Little success. The school systems weren't interested in anything other than when we volunteered to send people in to actually teach classes for free. USATT taught numerous seminars for teachers, but very little came out of it. At this time, we simply don't offer something they are interested in. The goal should be to change that rather than keep trying something that hasn't worked without addressing the reason it didn't work. Your basic idea is right, but it's like teaching a beginner to loop before teaching a basic forehand.

roundrobin wrote:
As all of you know, since 90%+ of all "serious" table tennis cadets and juniors in the U.S. in the past twenty years have come from Asian immigrant families in these three major metropolitan areas,


You might want to add Maryland and New Jersey to those three areas. Until about ten years ago Maryland juniors usually dominated the country, and are very strong right now as well. I can provide a list if you'd like, but we'd be going off-topic. (NJ has also been very strong, though some would argue they are part of the NY metropolitan area.)
-Larry Hodges

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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2015, 15:43 
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They played "Ping Pong" on this weeks Big Bang Theory and even made reference to the name Tabletennis during it. Millions watch this show. It shows TT is recognised as a fun activity and stuff like this should be capitalised on. There are more and more uses of the game being made by broad medium all the time.

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PostPosted: 17 Apr 2015, 20:05 
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haggisv wrote:
Cricket is a sport that would have considerably more 'dead time' in between the action, and this sport is hugely popular in some countries.


Or Baseball. Or American Football. Yet, they're gripping to watch, especially after you've had some introduction into what's going on. Just so much in the way of plotting and strategy.

Larry Hodges wrote:
I just ran across this. This is NOT what I argue. What I've argued is that schools aren't the first step. The first step is to popularize the sport on our own by developing regional leagues and junior programs (like other sports do and how they do it for table tennis overseas) rather than hoping schools in the U.S. will suddenly get interested in a small sport like us out of the blue. They are only interested in us if we send volunteers for free, and we have no way of doing that except in a few isolated cases. When we grow the sport, that's when the people who run schools will notice us and be interested, and that's when we take that step and spread through schools. I'm not going to get into a debate here about how to popularize the sport U.S. other than to say it's been done all over the world and in other sports in the U.S., and we're not magically different here in the U.S.; we just haven't been going about it the right way. I've blogged about this many times. This might even be a blog topic for tomorrow (or rather, this morning).

USATT has tried going to schools repeatedly over the years, and it never works since we haven't done the groundwork first, i.e. developing the sport to the point that the schools see us as having potential instead of being a charity case. I wish there were an easier way, where we could just snap our fingers and schools would spread table tennis everywhere and we'd have millions of active, serious players, but it doesn't work that way. We have to create a foundation first, and then schools can take us to the next level.
-Larry Hodges


In the US, there's also the fact that the school system is very decentralized (for better or worse), unlike in many other countries - you can't just get the Department of Education excited about some activity or another and get them to put money and effort into it nation-wide. On the other hand, it'd be much easier to convince a school district than it would the Department of Education!

Here, every school has a table tennis team, more or less. Lots of maybe 1800+ level high school players (or at least 1600+). But within the schools themselves it isn't a mass-popularity sport - typically you'd have maybe 10-20 enthusiasts out of several hundred students, maybe 3-4 tables max. Unlike Badminton or soccer (where you'd have at least several dozen serious players and hundreds who knock a ball or shuttlecock around the field or over the driveway gate in the evenings after school).

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PostPosted: 17 Apr 2015, 20:28 
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roundrobin wrote:
Most sports that are popular in their own countries are subsidized by their own government, one way or another. By this I mean the government officials mandated that such sports are included in schools. Without this official support, any niche sport will never become popular and mainstream. Table tennis is popular in many Asian countries (much more so than any European country with known league systems) simply because someone in their own government wanted this sport to be included in schools, not because the kids and their parents demand it. Here in the U.S., baseball, basketball, tennis, track and field, swimming, football, soccer, etc. are offered in public schools not because of public demand, but because the government officials wanted them to be from the beginning of time. Without government support in this manner, any sport will never really take off.


NOTHING in the US happens because the government wants it to happen, unless it's on the scale of the National Parks or the Interstate Highway system. Pretty much every sport that is popular in schools is popular because there is an established demand for it, which leads to money becoming available for it, and then it feeds on itself to keep going. There are tons of niche sports that remain niche sports because there isn't the huge demand for it from the public, even though there are established leagues and competitions - two of the larger ones I can think of would be lacrosse and (girl's) field hockey. Soccer seems to be on the verge of breaking out, there are already professional teams, and the US Womens' Team is already a major force on the world stage. Did this come about because someone in the government wanted it? I really don't think so. America isn't that sort of country. It wasn't some major national organization's doing either (though that would certainly have helped). It grew organically through increasing participation of parents, parks and rec departments all over the US, and finally, schools. Then it actually managed to work its way up to the college level. Pro level (mens) soccer took off at least once and then failed, IIRC, before it came to stay.

Yeah, I'm definitely no Republican or Tea Party guy (I'm pretty much the opposite) but I don't believe government is the answer here! :lol:

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PostPosted: 18 Apr 2015, 10:48 
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iskandar taib wrote:

NOTHING in the US happens because the government wants it to happen, unless it's on the scale of the National Parks or the Interstate Highway system. Pretty much every sport that is popular in schools is popular because there is an established demand for it, which leads to money becoming available for it, and then it feeds on itself to keep going. There are tons of niche sports that remain niche sports because there isn't the huge demand for it from the public, even though there are established leagues and competitions - two of the larger ones I can think of would be lacrosse and (girl's) field hockey. Soccer seems to be on the verge of breaking out, there are already professional teams, and the US Womens' Team is already a major force on the world stage. Did this come about because someone in the government wanted it? I really don't think so. America isn't that sort of country. It wasn't some major national organization's doing either (though that would certainly have helped). It grew organically through increasing participation of parents, parks and rec departments all over the US, and finally, schools. Then it actually managed to work its way up to the college level. Pro level (mens) soccer took off at least once and then failed, IIRC, before it came to stay.

Yeah, I'm definitely no Republican or Tea Party guy (I'm pretty much the opposite) but I don't believe government is the answer here! :lol:

Iskandar


I completely disagree. I have helped trained many kids here in L.A. from grade school to high school level, and most of them live in areas where more than 80% of their school population are composed of minorities (Asians and Latinos) NOT interested in American football, basketball, track & field, wrestling, volleyball, tennis or swimming. However, they don't any any other choice but to select one of these sports IF they wish to play in any of their school's teams. They prefer badminton, golf, martial arts, archery and table tennis, but many of them do not have such choices as they did when they were in Asia. This is the classic case of providing the infrastructure to force demand, and not the other way around. You don't need Obama to mandate LA and OC school districts to add table tennis to their schools, but SOMEONE with the sole job of representing USA table tennis should try their darn best to make it happen, as demand is clearly there. The LA/OC, SF/Bay Area and NY/NJ metropolitan school districts have literally many tens of thousands of immigrant kids who appreciate table tennis as a true varsity sport, and yet no one from USATT has lobbied for them for the past two decades! The fact that USATT tried it twenty, thirty years ago and failed is not an excuse that it won't work now. What exactly the USATT did for the sport for the past twenty, thirty years with our membership fees then?


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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2015, 05:57 
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roundrobin wrote:
iskandar taib wrote:

NOTHING in the US happens because the government wants it to happen, unless it's on the scale of the National Parks or the Interstate Highway system. Pretty much every sport that is popular in schools is popular because there is an established demand for it, which leads to money becoming available for it, and then it feeds on itself to keep going. There are tons of niche sports that remain niche sports because there isn't the huge demand for it from the public, even though there are established leagues and competitions - two of the larger ones I can think of would be lacrosse and (girl's) field hockey. Soccer seems to be on the verge of breaking out, there are already professional teams, and the US Womens' Team is already a major force on the world stage. Did this come about because someone in the government wanted it? I really don't think so. America isn't that sort of country. It wasn't some major national organization's doing either (though that would certainly have helped). It grew organically through increasing participation of parents, parks and rec departments all over the US, and finally, schools. Then it actually managed to work its way up to the college level. Pro level (mens) soccer took off at least once and then failed, IIRC, before it came to stay.

Yeah, I'm definitely no Republican or Tea Party guy (I'm pretty much the opposite) but I don't believe government is the answer here! :lol:

Iskandar


I completely disagree. I have helped trained many kids here in L.A. from grade school to high school level, and most of them live in areas where more than 80% of their school population are composed of minorities (Asians and Latinos) NOT interested in American football, basketball, track & field, wrestling, volleyball, tennis or swimming. However, they don't any any other choice but to select one of these sports IF they wish to play in any of their school's teams. They prefer badminton, golf, martial arts, archery and table tennis, but many of them do not have such choices as they did when they were in Asia. This is the classic case of providing the infrastructure to force demand, and not the other way around. You don't need Obama to mandate LA and OC school districts to add table tennis to their schools, but SOMEONE with the sole job of representing USA table tennis should try their darn best to make it happen, as demand is clearly there. The LA/OC, SF/Bay Area and NY/NJ metropolitan school districts have literally many tens of thousands of immigrant kids who appreciate table tennis as a true varsity sport, and yet no one from USATT has lobbied for them for the past two decades! The fact that USATT tried it twenty, thirty years ago and failed is not an excuse that it won't work now. What exactly the USATT did for the sport for the past twenty, thirty years with our membership fees then?


The present staff of USA Table Tennis consists of a CEO, Gordon Kaye, a COO & High Performance Director, Teodor Gheorghe, a Financial Director, Teresa Benavides, a Membership Director, Andy Horn, a Sanctioning and Ratings Manager, Tiffany Oldland, a Marketing Manager, Samuel Gest, and two independent contractors, Director of Para Programs Jasna Rather, Director of Communications/Webmaster Sean O'Neill. A total of eight people, two of whom are independent contractors. That's it.

The demand for table tennis in schools in the LA and Bay areas in California and in Gaithersburg, MD, New York City and parts of New Jersey may well be there, but what, roundrobin, is it exactly that you would have Mr. Horn, the Membership Director, do? Given the present preference of American high schools for the varsity sports that you mentioned, what can Mr. Horn accomplish as a lobbyist for the sport of table tennis to persuade high schools, not to mention elementary and middle schools, to include a sport that school administrators have, if they have ever played it, played the more elementary variant known to most Americans as ping pong.

It may, and I repeat may, take an intense and protracted effort by the parents of these tens of thousands of immigrant kids to even begin to persuade school administrators that there is a demand for table tennis in the Los Angeles and Bay areas of California, if not necessarily in very many other parts of the United States. I would not count on any representative of USA Table Tennis to be particularly helpful in making what you wish to happen to actually happen, as (a) this is a very low budget organization with fewer managers than a medium-sized Tucson restaurant, and (b) USATT is more interested in "winning gold medals at the 2015 Pan Am Games and reaching the podium at the 2016 Olympic Games." (USATT National Teams High Performance Plan, 2013-2016)


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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2015, 08:58 
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Many schools just don't want to invest the effort, while others have someone champion the cause
we all know schools with large or small amounts of players and they have simalar demagraphics

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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2015, 10:54 
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Dozens of high schools and community colleges in LA and OC areas already have badminton classes and varsity teams, serving many thousands of students in my area alone. SOMEONE IMPORTANT representing badminton convinced them it was worthwhile to do so, and I can tell you right now it wasn't the students. Table tennis does not have any true leadership if they can't pull off something similar in these schools. All these schools have large gyms and enough storage areas for some nice fold-up tables.
I am taking badminton classes right now at 3 local colleges. All 3 classes are full and had a wait list the first day. I've talked to all three coaches already and they all said if their school asked them to run table tennis classes they would love to, but the offer never came up. They also said they believe such classes would be full for sure.


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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2015, 00:50 
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Perhaps you can track down these "important people" in badminton and ask them how they did it? I suspect badminton grew like soccer grew. Schools started their badminton programs when enough parents got interested in it, and people stepped forward as coaches.

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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2015, 06:40 
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iskandar taib wrote:
Perhaps you can track down these "important people" in badminton and ask them how they did it? I suspect badminton grew like soccer grew. Schools started their badminton programs when enough parents got interested in it, and people stepped forward as coaches.

Iskandar


I did ask, as I hinted in my previous post. ;)
No, people can't simply step forward and volunteer as coaches and start conducting table tennis classes in schools. Only coaches with proper state-certified teaching credentials to teach in these schools can do so. In other words, those eager badminton coaches are perfectly able to help table tennis grow in schools if their schools give them the green light (extra income for these coaches). As to these kids' parents pressuring the schools to add table tennis, it simply won't happen as many of them are 1st gen immigrants who are struggling to stay afloat financially. Asking schools to "do something" different is the last thing on their minds. They need a strong advocate, such as the USATT President. ;)


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PostPosted: 22 Apr 2015, 23:51 
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Well, did they tell you who this "important person" was? And how they got him or her to push their case with the schools, and what he/she told them that made them start up badminton programs?

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PostPosted: 11 May 2015, 00:57 
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There's an upcoming Chinese (or rather, Cantonese = Hong Kong) movie featuring Badminton:

http://gsc.com.my/html/movies-info-syno ... vieID=1188



Pardon the subtitles... Image

Anyone ever come across a Chinese movie with a table tennis theme???? Japanese, yes, Chinese.. so far I haven't seen one. (There was an English one recently, with Susan Sarandon..)

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