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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2013, 11:00 
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MORE EXPERT OPINIONS and MORE TEST EVENTS REQUIRED.

I want to hear an expert opinion on the PBs from some of professional world-class players directly. I want to see profies playing at some serious competitions with PB's.
Till then, any "plastic ball debates" on internet forums do make very little sense, if any. Yes.

Let's take a "silent pause" and wait till an actual table tennis event that is to employ PBs all over....
It would be badly unwise of ITTF to put the plastic balls into general usage without any testing period at all.


To my expert thinking, there would be a prolonged series of trial events "on invitation" to evaluate every aspect of the plastic balls thoroughly. Just the same as when making pre-production tests of the bigger balls.,
It was quite long series of preliminaries before the year 2000. In total, there were some eight(8) 40mm Trial International Tournaments held between 1997 -99 so as to gather/learn player's actual views and criticism on the bigger ball.
I do have a couple of samples of those early 40 prototype DHS Balls to my ball's collection. The balls are 2, 77--2.78gr weighty, great acute feelings on hitting the ball.

So far, I see none notecible preliminary with the plastic balls. None....
It does suggest me very much that PolyBall is not going to be a statutore ball for EVERY professional event after July 2014 as announced before. Most likely, only a few selected ITTF events will adopt the balls for experimental purporse. Very few and most minor events only.
At least, 5-year transitional period is needed for the plastic balls to improve in quality so far as to be played at all major ITTF events.
And His Majesty Celluloid is immortal with club's ordinar folks, I believe.


Last edited by igorponger on 14 Jun 2013, 11:43, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2013, 11:06 
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Quote:
MORE EXPERT OPINIONS and MORE TEST EVENTS REQUIRED.

I want to hear an expert opinion on the PBs from some of professional world-class players directly. I want to see profies playing at some serious competitions with PB's.
Till then, any "plastic ball debates" on internet forums do make very little sense, if any. Yes.

me too, I don't mind any change I just want the best product at a good price

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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2013, 17:58 
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4.3 The experience of playing Polyball by different types of play
Selecting different types of professional player, including attacking play with double inverted rubber, attacking play with pimple rubber and chop stroke play, to play celluloid ball and Polyball on the spot. Collecting, sorting, categorizing and summarizing the information by distributing questionnaires.
All the selected test players have received or are receiving the professional table tennis ball training, and their sport level reach above second-level, who come from Table tennis ball majors of Tianjin University of Sport, Table tennis ball team of Tianjin Technology University and Tianjin first team of table tennis ball. Both universities won the champion in Tianjin College Table-Tennis Games. All the admitted table tennis ball specialized students are the retired athletes from the table tennis ball team of national provinces. They have higher sport skill and can represent the general table tennis ball level of Tianjin universities. All the Tianjin athletes have attended the different level professional national competitions, representing the highest table tennis ball level in Tianjin. Here is 50 player of total, see the following table.
Table 10
sex sport level
male female first-level second-level
Tianjin University of Sport 7 9 2 14
Tianjin Technology University 9 7 8 8
Tianjin table tennis ball team 10 8 7 11
Total 26 24 17 33
unit “person”
From table 10, we can see the male test players have 26 persons, 52% of the total, female 24, 48% of the total; the athletes of first level have 17, 34% of the total, second lever 33, 66% of the total. 16 students from Tianjin University of Sport take part in the test, male is 7, female 9, of these, 2 reached first levels, the rest did second levels. 16 specialized students from Tianjin Technology University take part in the test, male is 9, female 7, of these, 8 reached first levels, the rest did second levels. 18 current athletes from Tianjin table tennis ball team take part in the test, male is 10, female 8, of these, 7 reached first levels, the rest did second levels.
Questionnaires collect the playing experience of test players from different angles, which include the feelings and the experience to play Polyball separately by the skills of serve, topspin, bottom spin and chopping, the skills have strong representative in table tennis because those are the important skills running throughout the whole game. From observation of playing celluloid ball and Polyball and the questionnaires filled by test player after playing, to compare and analyze the two balls in the ball speed, spin and curve, and find out their differences.
4.3.1 The experience from attacking play with double inverted rubber(the analysis from chart, the following topics are the same)
Summarized the questionnaires filled by the players after playing, the players of attacking play with double inverted rubber have 33 persons, 66% of total, see table 3.
table 3
From table 3, in the 33 players of attacking play with double inverted rubber, the player with right-hand shake-hand grip have 22, 67% of it; Right-hand pen-holding style have 5, 15% of it; Left-hand shake-hand grip 5, 15%; Left-hand pen-holding style 1, 3%.
4.3.1.1 The impact of Polyball on serve ball
29 players mentioned the speed of serve ball have changed during play, 88% of the total. 4 players don’t have such change, 12% of it. 79% player think the speed change can be accepted, reduced the difficulty of first three strokes, the more contest focus on the rallies.
26 players feel the change of the curve from serve during play, 79% of the total. 7 feel nothing, 21% of it. 69% think the ball flying curve is higher when they serve, if they want a lower curve, the habit to hit the ball should be changed, such as direction of force, the range of falling onto table.
All the players feel the ball spin has changed in different extent. 15 feel strongly about the change, 45% of the total. They find serve quality of bottom spin has been cut; 17 think the spin indeed slowing, 52% of the total, they suggest they can still offer a good serve if changing and increasing the fiction area of the ball.
4.3.1.2 The impact of Polyball on topspin
27 players think the ball speed of topspin attacking has changed in different extent during play, 82% of the total. 52% players feel attacking speed has slowed down, 30% feel faster. The main reason is different feet position of everyone causes different hitting point and different feelings for the ball speed.
25 players feel the curve of topspin attacking has changed during play, 76% of the total, 8 players feel no, 24% of the total. 80% players think the curve of topspin is higher and more steady, it can avoid many up-and-down “unexpected ball”.
In all the players, 8 players do not feel the change on spin, 24% of the total, all the others of 76% think the spin of topspin attacking change to be slower. Especially, defender feels much change, the spin of pull topspin become reduced and more easily to control.
4.3.1.3 The impact of Polyball on bottom spin
30 players think the speed of loop has changed during play, 91% of the total. 3 players have no such feeling, 9% of the total. 80% players feel the speed of pull loop become slower, the impact force from accelerated loop has slow down. It has a big effect on the player with less strength.
29 players mention the curve of loop has changed in different extent during play, 88% of the total, 3 players have no such feeling, 12% of the total. 59% players feel the curve of their pull loop become higher, and the flying curve is quite smooth, the only bad feeling is the drive quality reduced because the opponent can receive and return it easily.
31 players think the spin of loop has changed during play, 94% of the total, 2 players have no such feeling, 6% of the total. 94% players feel the spin of bottom spin become weak in a great extent, even to increase the friction on purpose to pull high loop, defenders still feel the spin is less than before; they mention the spin from push also has reduced down. The players who are good at push and spin feel very helpless on it.
More than half of the players with inverted rubber think the advent of Polyball will have some certain impacts on them, this mainly reflects in the control of their serve, drive and sophisticated style. The biggest difference is the forward impact force of Polyball becomes obviously weak, the ball from loop drive is always get higher but not far, the quality of the ball shot has been cut. But it is a two-way impact, you can take a dominant position as long as finding out the rule and dealing with it actively.
4.3.2 The experience from attacking play with pimple rubber
Summarized the questionnaires filled by the players after playing, the players of attacking play with pimple rubber have 11 persons, 22% of total.
The classification of attacking play with pimple rubber
the
proportion
of players right-hand right-hand right-hand right-hand left-hand left-hand
shake-hand shake-hand pen-holding pen-holding shake-hand shake-hand
grip / pimple grip / pimple grip / pimple grip / long grip / pimple grip / pimple
out rubber out(Special)rubber out rubber pimple rubber out rubber out(Special)rubber
2 4 2 1 1 1
18% 36% 18% 9% 9% 9%
From the above table, in the 11 players of attacking play with pimple rubber, the players with right-hand shake-hand grip of pimple-out rubber have 2, 18% of it; right-hand shake-hand grip of pimple-out (Special) rubber have 4, 36% of it; right-hand pen-holding grip of pimple-out rubber have 2, 18% of it; right-hand pen-holding grip of long pimple rubber have 1, 9% of it; left-hand shake-hand grip of pimple-out rubber have 1, 9%; left-hand shake-hand grip of pimple-out (Special) rubber have 1, 9%.
4.3.2.1 The impact of Polyball on serve ball
8 players feel the speed of serve ball become slow in different extent during play. 73% of the total, 3 players don’t feel the change, 27% of the total. 6 players feel slower, 2 players feel slow, 73% of the total, they think the kinds of ball impact their speed of serve ball indeed. By contrast, they feel serve speed from the opponent become slow and easy to judge it when they receive the serve.
9 players think the ball curve from serve has changed in different extent during play, 82% of the total, 2 players have no such feeling, 18% of the total.7 players feel the curve become higher, 78% of the total, 2 players feel become lower, 22% of the total, personal experience has a close connexion with attacking habit and has a strong subjective undersanding.
All the players of attacking play with pimple rubber emphasize that the ball spin from serve has changed during play. 10 players feel it become weaker, 22% of the total, the rest of 9% feel weak, and express it is true that the spin from serve is affected by Polyball and think the ball is easy to slip and can not be controlled completely at the moment of friction.
4.3.2.2 The impact of Polyball on topspin
8 players think the ball speed of topspin has changed during play, 73% of the total. 3 players have no such feeling, 27% of the total. 6 of them feel attacking speed has slowed down, 2 feel faster. Most of them express it is benefit to their play. At the same time, the player with pimple out rubber mentioned that fast is their own character, the reduced speed will cause some effect on them.
10 players mention the curve of topspin has changed during play, 91% of the total, 1 player feel no, 9% of the total. 6 of them think the ball curve of attacking is higher 4 of them feel it is lower. The player with long pimple rubber mentioned the ball hitting back is not heavy and have not prominent character, she thinks the advent of the new ball does more harm than good to her.
10 players feel the spin of topspin has changed during play, 91% of the total, 1 player feel no, 9% of the total. For the player with pimple rubber playing, the change of spin directly affects the feelings in the hand when player touch the ball. Most of them express the reduced spin is benefit to stability of defense.
4.3.2.3 The impact of Polyball on bottom spin
9 players think the speed of bottom spin drive has changed during play, 82% of the total. 2 players have no such feeling, 18% of the total. 7 of them feel the speed become slower, 1 feels fast. The player with pimple rubber playing generally expresses the reduced speed is benefit to find out reasonable attacking point and take forehand shock and backhand stroke, hit rate will be improved.
5 players mention the curve of bottom spin drive has changed during play, 45% of the total, 6 players have no such feeling, 5% of the total. 3 of them feel it becomes higher, 2 feel lower. It shows the impact that Polyball causes the curve change for the player with pimple rubber playing is not obvious, it will disappear when player become more and more used to Polyball.
10 players feel the spin of playing bottom spin become weak during play, 91% of the total, 1 player has no such feeling, 9% of the total. The feature of pimple rubber is uneasy to make a mistake on receiving spinning ball, especially on bottom spin, so the reduced spin will help the player with pimple rubber playing more control over the ball from opponent. But it is not easy to control the ball when push, drop shot, jump high and push without spin will occur.
The players with pimple rubber playing generally agree that the curve of Polyball is steady, ball bounce higher but not go forward, quite complying with the play of short court with “more impact less friction”. For pimple rubber playing, the biggest weakness is baseline long shot, the new ball spin become weak and speed slow, the flying curve is higher, the forward impact force after dropping on table is lower, reduce the threats from baseline long shot, the hit rate will be boosted.
4.3.3 The experience from chop stroke defensive play
Summarized the questionnaires filled by the players after playing, the players of chop stroke defensive play have 6 persons, 12% of total.
The classification of defensive play
the
proportion
of players Right hand with pimple out (Special) rubber Right hand with long pimple rubber Right hand with pimple out rubber Left hand with pimple out rubber
2 2 1 1
33% 33% 17% 17%
Unit: person
From the above table, the players with right-hand grip with pimple out (Special) rubber have 2, 33% of them; right-hand grip with long pimple rubber have 2, 33% of them; right-hand grip with pimple out rubber have 1, 17% of them; left-hand grip with pimple out rubber have 1, 17% of them.
4.3.3.1 The impact of Polyball on serve ball
All the chop players feel the speed of serve ball have changed during play, 1 of them feels faster, 17% of the total, 5 players feel slower, 83% of it. Most of players express it is a two-way impact, the reduced speed from serve can make them a breakthrough in the control of the service reception.
All the chop players mention the curve of serve ball has changed during play, one of them feel the curve is high, 17% of the total, 3 players feel higher, 50% of the total. 2 players feel slower, 33% of the total. Everyone’s understanding on curve is difference, it is certain that the impact of Polyball on the curve from serve is not absolute.
All the chop players mention the spin from serve ball become reduced during play, which shows Polyball has impact on the spin from serve, but the impact works for all play, it needs player to improve their skill on attacking rules for the new ball.
4.3.3.2 The impact of Polyball on topspin
5 chop players think the ball speed of topspin has changed in different extent during play, 83% of the total, one player feels no. One of them feels faster, 3 feel slower, one feels slow. Many players think the reduced speed is benefit on counterattack and continuous attack after counterattack.
5 chop players feel the ball curve of topspin has changed during play, 83% of the total, one player feels no. One of them feels high, 3 feel higher, 2 feel lower. Most of them think proper control on attacking time and feet point can overcome the change.
3 chop players think the ball spin of topspin become a little bit of weak during play, 50% of the total, 3 players feels no. It shows chop player has no sensitive to the spin change from topspin, not as much as the play with double inverted rubber and with pimple rubber.
4.3.3.3 The impact of Polyball on bottom spin
6 chop players mention the speed of bottom spin drive has changed during play. Since chop play is often used in defensive, the reduced speed means they have more time to find the right position and to control, all players think the change will benefit to improve defensive play.
2 chop players feel the ball curve of bottom spin become high during play, 33% of the total, other 4 players have no such feeling. It shows from the point of view of defensive play, curve change either up or down has not great impact on their play. Flying curve can be controlled as long as paying more attention on it.
6 chop players feel the spin of bottom spin has changed during play, two of them think it is strong than before, 33% of the total, 4 players feel it’s weak, 33% of the total. After thorough understanding, the 2 players who feel spin becomes strong express they can do more strong spin if they want, that is to say, the spin is stronger than before when they offer to increase spin.
4.3.3.4 The impact of Polyball on chop play
4 chop players think the ball speed of chop become slow during play, 67% of the total, 4 players have no such feeling. The change is very beneficial to defender, chop stroke is often used at middle and back court, the range of movement become relatively wider, the reduced speed enable them to have time to control their place, and benefit them to better play to their advantages.
5 chop players mention the ball curve of chop has changed during play, 83% of the total, 1 player has no such feeling. One of them feels the curve is high, 2 feel higher, 2 feel lower. By asking them to know the 2 players who feel the curve is lower express that Polyball is easy to be controlled during chop, the curve from chop is very lower and steady.
5 chop players feel the ball spin of chop has changed during play, 83% of the total, 1 player has no such feeling. 2 of them feel the spin is stronger, 3 feel weaker. Although they have different feelings after play Polyball, all the players express that drive quality from opponent, whether the ball speed or spin, has variously decrease, chop quality has improved, the spin change from Polyball doesn’t impact their control on spin. The drawback is harder to play a short ball, the ball bounce is high when dropping on table, forward impact force become weak, so-called “get higher but not far”, therefore, do not stand far away from table when chop, to ensure player can be in time for positioning while opponent suddenly defend short ball.
5 Conclusion
5.1 Conclusion
5.1.1 Polyball use new synthetic plastic with non-toxic, harmless, safety, environmental protection and other benefits, clearly better than the ball made of celluloid, full compliance with ITTF requirements to innovate the material of table tennis ball, promote table tennis ball movement toward a scientific and balanced direction.
5.1.2 Polyball use seamless integral forming process, make a breakthrough to solve the substantial problem of seam on celluloid ball, and make table tennis ball into one unit in the true sense of the word.
5.1.3 Every physical index and appearance quality of Polyball are better than of celluloid, it is more close to the ideal competition ball.
5.1.4 The players generally think the feeling of Polyball is better than of celluloid ball after play. Its bounce is more conformity and avoid unexpected ball in a large degree, and reduce some unnecessary mistakes.
5.1.5 The reduced speed and spin of Polyball, on one hand, help the development of chop defensive play and pimple play, on the other hand, causes certain impact to the player of attacking play with double reverted rubber and the more competition focus on stalemate.
5.1.6 The bounce of Polyball is conformity, the curve is steady, the difficulty of playing ball become lower, increase rallies, greatly improve enjoyment and help the development of table tennis ball.

------from China Tianjin University of Sport, Zhang Mingyin, Master's Thesis,


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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2013, 18:10 
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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2013, 23:24 
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igorponger wrote:
MORE EXPERT OPINIONS and MORE TEST EVENTS REQUIRED.

I want to hear an expert opinion on the PBs from some of professional world-class players directly. I want to see profies playing at some serious competitions with PB's.
Till then, any "plastic ball debates" on internet forums do make very little sense, if any. Yes.


So debates about what a joke the ITTF is for the manner the new ball is implemented make very little sense? Reviews of competent amateur players do make little sense? Those are the players who will be affected the most.
I suppose Henzell is also an amateur who doesn't play serious competitions.
Please define serious competitions? Is the Belgian super league serious or not?

one word: elitism. :clap:


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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2013, 23:29 
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What brand of ball were they using in the article, Fashion? Seamless or with seam?

It doesn't seem to be that bad for defenders, but that's something I already figured out because both attacking and defending players wouldn't produce as much spin anymore. I only fear the hitters, especially the SP ones.


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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2013, 23:36 
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Fashion ball hf's conclusion (section 5.1) seems totally inconsistent with the rest of the study. State censorship, perhaps..?

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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2013, 23:54 
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Lorre wrote:
What brand of ball were they using in the article, Fashion? Seamless or with seam?

In the conclusion I read "without seam". Didn't read through the whole thing though.


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PostPosted: 15 Jun 2013, 02:17 
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Coxeroni wrote:
In the conclusion I read "without seam". Didn't read through the whole thing though.


Thx, Coxeroni. Didn't read those conclusions, only the studies of the pips and defensive play (and part of the double inverted).

nathanso wrote:
Fashion ball hf's conclusion (section 5.1) seems totally inconsistent with the rest of the study. State censorship, perhaps..?


The question is if this study is related to the person of Fashion. He just might got his hands on this study.
I personally find it hard to draw conclusions from the report, except that, if the study is conducted seriously and all data are real, there is a lot of variety in the reactions of the players, even among the defensive ones.


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Lorre wrote:
What brand of ball were they using in the article, Fashion? Seamless or with seam?

It doesn't seem to be that bad for defenders, but that's something I already figured out because both attacking and defending players wouldn't produce as much spin anymore. I only fear the hitters, especially the SP ones.


The article said the ball was seamless so the conclusions were about the seamless ball. The conclusion statements show an obvious bias. Particularly in the opening statement.

The analysis about how the changes would affect that game were not very sophisticated. Don't be surprised if the upshot is that elite players respond by going for earlier and more risky attacks since defending should become steadier due to more consistent and slower arcing loops.

BTW, the Tianjin article seems to report the same kinds of things we amateurs have reported. Maybe our reports weren't so useless.

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PostPosted: 15 Jun 2013, 06:12 
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Lorre wrote:
igorponger wrote:
MORE EXPERT OPINIONS and MORE TEST EVENTS REQUIRED.

I want to hear an expert opinion on the PBs from some of professional world-class players directly. I want to see profies playing at some serious competitions with PB's.
Till then, any "plastic ball debates" on internet forums do make very little sense, if any. Yes.


So debates about what a joke the ITTF is for the manner the new ball is implemented make very little sense? Reviews of competent amateur players do make little sense? Those are the players who will be affected the most.
I suppose Henzell is also an amateur who doesn't play serious competitions.
Please define serious competitions? Is the Belgian super league serious or not?

one word: elitism. :clap:


Debating and testing a ball that isn't an ITTF ball, and it isn't disclosed on what grade these balls are (according to ITTF published test study, there were 4 grades, A,B,C,D..with A being closest to celluloid), although not useless, only sheds a small amount of light of what "MAY" be what we play with next year.


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PostPosted: 15 Jun 2013, 07:22 
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j-bo wrote:
Lorre wrote:
igorponger wrote:
MORE EXPERT OPINIONS and MORE TEST EVENTS REQUIRED.

I want to hear an expert opinion on the PBs from some of professional world-class players directly. I want to see profies playing at some serious competitions with PB's.
Till then, any "plastic ball debates" on internet forums do make very little sense, if any. Yes.


So debates about what a joke the ITTF is for the manner the new ball is implemented make very little sense? Reviews of competent amateur players do make little sense? Those are the players who will be affected the most.
I suppose Henzell is also an amateur who doesn't play serious competitions.
Please define serious competitions? Is the Belgian super league serious or not?

one word: elitism. :clap:


Debating and testing a ball that isn't an ITTF ball, and it isn't disclosed on what grade these balls are (according to ITTF published test study, there were 4 grades, A,B,C,D..with A being closest to celluloid), although not useless, only sheds a small amount of light of what "MAY" be what we play with next year.


Although I agree with you, there are two "buts":

1) We're talking to igorponger here, one of the most famous proponents of the ITTF (changes) and elitist first class (just read the words: 'if any." Yes." and imagine him sitting in his chair gloating while writing those words). Keep that in mind when you read my reply: my words get another dimension when doing that.

2) Once amateurs get an ITTF ball in their hands, it will not be necessary to test it because we probably will be playing with them already or it will not be long before they become standard, so testing is useless. I like to know as much as I can what's coming: even when the reviews aren't perfect or about a prototype of an earlier ball, they still are more worthwhile than doing nothing or just speculating. It's the same as with you starting the petition against the new ball: although the chances were very small that a petition would have any influence at all, you've started one because it was better than just speculating or doing nothing.


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j-bo wrote:

Debating and testing a ball that isn't an ITTF ball, and it isn't disclosed on what grade these balls are (according to ITTF published test study, there were 4 grades, A,B,C,D..with A being closest to celluloid), although not useless, only sheds a small amount of light of what "MAY" be what we play with next year.


The A grade did not mean "closest to celluloid." The grading was based on measured ball irregularities.

I disagree. There is NO ITTF ball yet. All are a prototype at this stage. The Palio ball is within spec and more importantly matches closely the size of the balls that the ITTF is testing. It also performs similarly according to the descriptions. Given that it will take time to produce the number of balls needed for a mass conversion, it seems likely that the Palio ball is a ball that is near the end of its development as well. I'd grade our info as "LIKELY" but certainly not "GUARANTEED."

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The pen hold grip makes a resurgence. It's a power hitters game with easier blocking !!!!!!!!!

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Hunter Flame / Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 both sides .. Play Right-handed
Gambler Double Carbon / 4H DHS H8 39 degrees Max / BH Kokutaku 911 Long Pips OX / Play Left-handed
729 Wood / 4H Bty Ten 64 max / BH GD CC LP OX .. Play Left-handed
Hunter Fire / 4H Xiom Omega IV Elite Max / BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 .. Play Right-handed
Cpen SOS Wood / 4H 729 802-40 2.0 / BH GD Talon LP OX .. Play Left-handed Shakehand
HARDBAT / Shakehand Hock 3 ply / Friendship Dr Evil OX .. Play Right-handed


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PostPosted: 18 Jun 2013, 00:20 
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wturber wrote:
j-bo wrote:

Debating and testing a ball that isn't an ITTF ball, and it isn't disclosed on what grade these balls are (according to ITTF published test study, there were 4 grades, A,B,C,D..with A being closest to celluloid), although not useless, only sheds a small amount of light of what "MAY" be what we play with next year.


The A grade did not mean "closest to celluloid." The grading was based on measured ball irregularities.

I disagree. There is NO ITTF ball yet. All are a prototype at this stage. The Palio ball is within spec and more importantly matches closely the size of the balls that the ITTF is testing. It also performs similarly according to the descriptions. Given that it will take time to produce the number of balls needed for a mass conversion, it seems likely that the Palio ball is a ball that is near the end of its development as well. I'd grade our info as "LIKELY" but certainly not "GUARANTEED."


Considering they only used the best veer polyball ("A") to use in the testing, which had the closest veer to the current 3 star celluloid ball, what else could you ascertain that to mean?

IMO, "A" polyballs will be considered 3 star, "B" 1 star, and I don't know about the C and D's.. maybe training balls or they are just trashed/recycled.


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