OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Perhaps many of you do not know the way that decisions are made at the ITTF. I have explained that many times before on this forum and other forums as well. It is rather simple:
- No decision is made by one person as some seem to think in this forum
- All changes regarding the Constitution (Chapter 1 of ITTF Handbook) are decided by the Annual General Meeting (AGM) and require a two-third (66.66%) majority.
- All changes regarding the Laws of the Game (Rules - Chapter 2 of ITTF Handbook) are decided by the Annual General Meeting (AGM) and require a 75% majority.
- All changes regarding the World title Events (Chapter 3 of ITTF Handbook) are decided by the Board of Directors (BoD) and require a 50% simple majority.
- All changes regarding International Events (Chapter 4 of ITTF Handbook) are decided by the Board of Directors (BoD) and require a 50% simple majority.
- All changes regarding the Anti-Doping Rules (Chapter 5 of ITTF Handbook) are decided by the Board of Directors (BoD) and require a 50% simple majority.
- All changes to Technical Leaflets, which are documents instructing the manufacturers on how to produce equipment for ITTF approval, such as tables (TL-1), balls, nets, etc., are decided by the BoD and require a 50% simple majority.

The Athletes Commission is part of the BoD with a vote, and attends the AGM. The BoD and AGM are held annually during the World Championships. At the AGM only the member national associations in attendance (or by proxy) can vote. The BoD is elected by the AGM every 4 years.

Regarding the current size of the Poly Balls, the latest samples are indeed 40mm. Some of the earlier Poly balls were hand-made due to the non-availability of the machines that will produce these balls. Now at least one prototype machine is ready, but still needs a lot of adjustments to produce a more perfect ball, at a higher rate and more efficiently, etc. Eventually, one of the manufacturers will have 30 machines and that will produce the number of balls needed to cover the needs of all their customers. Based on the new method of production of the ball, and the new molds used to produce seamless balls, the size of the ball will be very accurate, hence the reduction in the tolerance level. The purpose of assigning an upward tolerance level only, is to ensure that the mould is exactly 40mm, as it should, rather than using an "average' size mould of less than 40mm. The process to make the new balls is very complicated and difficult to explain here in a few words.

The ITTF has made a practical and necessary decision based on all the facts and information it has. As long as Celluloid balls are available they will remain legal, and all of you are welcome to use them. However, being cautious and the BoD, being the custodian of technical matters at the ITTF, has decided to side with caution and use the new Poly balls as of 1 July 2014, which is a borderline date that may coincide with the lack of availability of celluloid balls. We have been assured by the manufacturers that we will have a sufficient supply of the celluloid balls till that date, and that the Poly balls would be perfected by that time. In fact, the Poly balls for general market distribution will be made available as of the first half of 2013. So there will be plenty of time (more than one year) to provide feedback and make the necessary adjustments to the production machines to get the balls as close as possible to the current celluloid balls. However, as I said before they will never be 100% the same. We predict that the new Poly balls will be more "dynamic" (more bouncy), and more smooth (less spin), which will take some time for adaptation, but according to the top players, this should not be a very long time, in fact a shorter time than adapting to the change from 38mm to 40mm.

I hope that these explanations meet with your satisfaction. Remember, that if you are a member of your national association, you should normally be fully informed of the above brief explanation. So, it is an advantage to be a member of your NA.

One last comment regarding the presidency of the ITTF. I was elected by the AGM in 1995 as a Vice President, then in 1997 as a Deputy President, and then in 1999 as President. I was re-elected President in 2001 and 2003. For 2005, the rule changed and the AGM had already decided 2 years earlier that the mandate of the president would be 4 years (like most other IFs) following the Olympic Quadrennial. I was elected in 2005 for 4 years, and then again in 2009 for a further 4 years (till 2013). All the elections except one (2009) were by acclamation, and 2009 was a contested election. It is absolutely right to say that this is a very long period, although on the average shorter than other IFs), and the next mandate will most definitely be the last (2013-2017) provided of course that I am re-elected in 2013.

For historical buffs, I am the 6th President of the ITTF that was founded in 1926. The first President, Mr. Ivor Montague (England), presided for 40 years, then Mr. Roy Evans (Wales) for 20 years, then Mr. Ichiro Ogimura (Japan) for 7 years (died half-way in his 4th 2-year mandate). His term was completed (1 year) by Mr. Lollo Hammarlund (Sweden), who was then elected in 1995, but unfortunately died 5 months after being elected and, therefore, the Deputy President, Mr. Xi Yinsheng (China) took over as president according to our constitution. He was then elected in his own right in 1997. I was elected in 1999.

And now back to answering the 422 e-mails in my in-box. Have a good week.

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Adham Sharara

True. Hence the question, why was a T3 Technical Leaflet update called for?


Maybe semantically true, but still misleading. By having no negative side tolerance, the result will be that the balls we actually play with will be larger and as a practical necessity larger than 40mm. The 38mm balls that I have also measured about .3mm smaller than their nominal diameter. So it isn't particularly surprising that the new 40mm balls might follow the same pattern.

Making the ball on the smaller side of the allowed tolerances makes for a more durable ball. Maybe the ITTF should have researched this more thoroughly before implementing the fairly wide tolerances that were implemented with the change to a 40mm ball. Also, this article attributed a motivation on the part of the ITTF to make the ball larger to slow the game down more. Maybe they simply misunderstood?

http://tabletennista.com/2011/8/sharara ... e-tennis//


Actually, the original decision was that no celluloid balls would be made or used after the London Olympics.
http://www.ittf.com/World_Events/wttc_2 ... D_2012.pdf
Other more vague announcements were made that the new ball would be used "after" the London Olympics. Of course, they didn't say how long after, but the general interpretation at the time was that the meaning was "directly after."

This is a change. It isn't that hard to find statements from the ITTF or its officials that there was/is an intent to make the use of celluloid balls illegal in the near future. There is plenty of reason to look at the sequence of things and wonder what is the cause and what is the effect. If the ITTF comes out strongly showing an intent to discontinue the use of celluloid, that might influence a company that manufactures celluloid sheet for ball production to plan on stopping the production of celluloid.


See above.
http://tabletennista.com/2011/8/sharara ... e-tennis//
"The current plan of the ITTF is to prohibit the use of celluloid ball. Such move is because of two reasons. One is that celluloids are toxic and it will have an impact towards the factory workers. The second is that it is quite dangerous to transport since it highly flammable. The new ball will be seamless and China already counts with two factories that are working in the new ball, one owned by DHS, and the by Double Fish. It will be operational as soon as the London Olympics is over."


This seems logical at first. But why would China (of all countries) stop the production of celluloid and harm one of the top sports in China? Why would table tennis manufacturers world wide tolerate such a calamity without taking steps themselves? Are we to believe that only the ITTF has the vision to see the potential problem - that large companies would not take the necessary steps on their own to protect their industry, livelihood and sport? Would they stand idly by and let disaster fall? Probably not. There was no impending worldwide ban as you originally stated and have since recanted. I'll leave it to the reader to speculate whether the claimed impending stoppage of celluloid sheet is the cause or the effect of ITTF actions. It may not be possible for me or the rest of us to ever actually know the truth.


The film industry abandoned celluloid ages ago for very real safety and archival reasons. The move to "safety" film (cellulose triacetate) began in 1948. The modern bases used today are typically polyester. That shift occurred in the 1990s. We are two stages past the use of celluloid in the film industry. The move to digital has zippo - nada - zero to do with the "problems" of celluloid. These things are easily verifiable. This is just more misinformation from you and it makes some of your past claims about celluloid all the more difficult to take seriously.



Not really. I asked a series of questions of you on this topic and on this forum many months back and you chose not to directly address them. You did not provide the facts to back your assertions back when they were requested. You had a chance to clarify back then and chose not to. You are "spinning" thing here again and also still misinforming others.

While there are things you have done that I agree with (supporting Matilda Ekholm, working to find a solution to the problems associated with the World Championship of Ping-Pong sandpaper tournament) I do not support the way you have not answered reasonable questions on this issue or how you have "spun" the facts from time to time. I do think it is good that the adoption of a poly ball by the ITTF is delayed until 2014. Hopefully it will be a satisfactory ball by then. Because done rightly or wrongly, the move to a non-celluloid ball seems inevitable.

_________________
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
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Unfortunately you and others are the ones spinning and interpreting everything the way you want to interpret it. Don't ask me why China will stop production of celluloid sheets, ask the Minister of Industry in China why they made this decision after joining the WTO, and ask the manufacturers why they want to change to a safer and cleaner production. In any case, I will not waste your time, here are the facts, as clear as I can express them:
- celluloid sheets to make the current balls are on a diminishing quota in China and will not be available any more in the near future
- as long as celluloid balls are available, all are welcome to use them
- The ITTF, for ITTF events, has decided that it will use the Poly balls that have always been legal, as of 1 July 2014
- Technical Leaflets are always updated, nearly every year, sometimes every 2 years, depending on the need, and the TL for balls was updated because the tolerance level text was changed by the ITTF's Board of Directors.
- The reason for a wide tolerance level in diameter with Celluloid Balls is due to the manufacturing process, with the Poly balls the manufacturing process is different and can produce 40mm balls, the tolerance in fact may have to be in the actual thickness of the plastic. But this is till under study
- There may be more changes to the TL for balls because one of the approval tests (The VEER TEST) does not work for the Poly balls, because the ball is seamless

You may or may not like some decisions, this is your prerogative, but you do not have all the information to judge our intentions. Any decision can be questioned, some may agree, some may not, and that is why there is a process to make changes. The process is followed and the outcome is accepted by all, even if some may be for or against a decision. This is called the democratic system.

You can express your opinion, and you can be against some or all decisions, but please do not invent reasons and pass judgement and assume that there is always a hidden agenda and a hidden motive. The ITTF is composed of 217 member associations of which about 150 or so attend the AGM, we also have a Board of Directors of over 60 persons, so all proposals or changes are scrutinized and thoroughly examined before any decision is made (by vote). We also receive expert advise from our expert committees. So, I feel very comfortable with all decisions we take, even if I may personally not agree with some. But that is the democratic way. Then once a decision is made, we (in the ITTF) all work collectively (those for and against) to implement the change according to the decision taken. And, oh yes, we take some time to explain it to the skeptical, but sometime I wonder if it is time well spent.

"Over and out" for some time now, as we have a myriad of things to do in preparation for the Olympic Games. I do not want to be curt, but I really must attend to other very urgent matters. let's take up this matter again in 2-years time (July 2014). In the meantime, I invite you to enjoy our game with any ball you like. Just play this great sport and enjoy yourself.

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Adham Sharara

I humbly apologize for posting the reply twice. I am not familiar enough with the system. I posted as a "quote" and also as a "response". perhaps the administrator could remove the "quote" one, as it is a duplication and repeats the member's message.

If one member living in England says one nice thing about me, I will offer him/her one spectator ticket to the TT event in London. It does not have to be too nice a compliment, just something a little nice for once.

Since I will not be checking the Forum for a while, I hope Haggisv could alert me on my e-mail.

Good luck!

_________________
Adham Sharara

sounds like a great offer, any English supporters should get in quick

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Yes. Makes me dissapointed and jealous I'm stuck in Oz

I remember how excellent it was at the Sydney Olympics as a junior player... so good to see professional TT up close for the first time.

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Whether ITTF is a democratic association or not has already been debated before. All facts point out that it is not.

-The vast majority of ITTF delegates were not elected democratically by their respective association members rather by appointment of their authoritarian regimes. These people do not even know the true meaning of democracy, let alone really represent the true interests of table tennis players world-wide. This is a fact. To date, there are only 25 countries in the world that practice true democracy, so out of 217 ITTF delegates, the most likely scenario is a whopping 192 delegates were not democratically elected by people they ought to represent.

-There's also zero separation of powers in ITTF like what must exist in a true democracy, another fact. Zero mechanism of checks and balances exists in ITTF.

-No true democracy allows unlimited terms for their presidency or other BOD positions either. Yet another fact.

That's three strikes against calling ITTF a democracy... Its characteristics match very closely those of a totalitarian regime with a single party system.

Adham, I wouldn't need the offer of a ticket to say something nice. If I think something, I say it regardless. You did post on my India vs England international a couple of years ago which was kind of you to take an interest but attending the olympics would not be possible even though I live in England.

However, I'll turn the offer round. If you are willing to support local league table tennis try and promote the great sport of table tennis and are willing to attend as a table tennis fan I'll offer you one spectator ticket to come and watch the GB vs Australia international our league has organised which takes place on 23rd of July.

Here's a chance for you to show your support for grass roots local league player initiatives with the help of ITTF affiliated associations and local sponsors. PM me if you are interested in attending.

Are these "facts" or are they interpretations of information?

For example, Adham provides us with information regarding his terms as president of the ITTF:
But the interpretation of this information is that the ITTFIf the term of a presidency is set at four years, that is not an unlimited term. If the current president can only continue if they are re-elected then clearly there are limits: the need for an election to be held and for someone to win that election. This is exactly the same as the political situation in Australia: a Prime Minister has to go to the polls every three years and has to win the election in order to remain in power. Sir Robert Gordon Menzies was PM of Australia for eighteen years, but there were elections every three years.

So, is it a "fact" that the ITTF allows "unlimited terms for their presidency"? Or is it a mis-interpretation of information provided?

_________________
"So long, and thanks for all the fish
So sad that it should come to this" Sung by the dolphins in The hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy

One significant difference is that the Australian people have a vote.

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It's called term limits. ITTF has none.

Actually Australia, the UK and Japan practice a hybrid form of democracy, not a true democracy.
Prime Ministers do not function like the President of a true democracy. The Supreme Court as the ULTIMATE constraint of the President's and the Congress' powers in a true democracy does not exist in a hybrid democracy. Furthermore, unlike Prime Ministers in many countries, the President's powers in a true democracy are also severely limited by the Congress, hence "Checks and Balances".

Presidential term limits around the world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_term_limits

I think you'd have a hard time convincing Australians that USA is more democratic than Australia

Which of course depends upon how you define "true democracy". It seems to me that the USA defines itself as the "true" everything. I'm not even remotely convinced that a country that still practises capital punishment and which has the craziest gun laws in the world even approximates a "true democracy". Sorry if that offends, but it's just my personal opinion.
I also think you would have a very, very hard time convincing our Supreme Court that it was any less significant in the democratic process. Perhaps you need to get up to speed on Australia's model of governance?
Yeah, I can see how your President's powers are more severely limited than our Prime Minister - given that our Prime Ministers can be voted out long before the next election rolls around. You might want to talk to Kevin Rudd about which "checks and balances" he'd rather operate with.

But all of this distracts us from the real issue: Adham Sharara comes here and everything he says is immediately disputed by some members. If he came on here and suggested that daylight occurs when the sun comes up, certain forum members would immediately argue that it wasn't true, that he was using smoke and mirrors to obscure the truth, and if it is true then somehow or other he is lining his pockets as a result of it.

Quite frankly, it beats me why he even bothers to try.

_________________
"So long, and thanks for all the fish
So sad that it should come to this" Sung by the dolphins in The hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy

Back on topic everyone please (including myself )... we do not want to discuss politics of the world here.

_________________
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Tassie, for a starter, a true democracy does not have a monarchy. Are you really interested in learning the facts, or trying to stir things up for your own amusement? I find it impossible to "discuss" anything meaningful with you. Take it easy with your "lol!" smilies in your posts please...

The answer to your question why Australia is a "hybrid democracy" instead of a "true democracy" is Australia still has a Queen, and she was not elected. End of discussion. (My original post has absolutely nothing to do with which nation's political system is superior, but to simply debunk Adham's claim that ITTF is a "democracy".)

Personally, I appreciate Adham coming here and trying to explain things. It says to me there is a level of caring on behalf of the ITTF for players at grassroots which doesn't seem obvious on the face of it. While we have been unable to find evidence collectively regarding the phasing out of celluloid production, doesn't mean it isn't so. I personally dislike the idea of a poly ball and the changes that will bring with it. But I am willing to take Adham at his word that China is pulling out of celluloid production simply because if there was a hidden agenda behind it, I think it would be easier for him to simply ignore us. I'd rather a poly ball than no ball at all...so long as that ball comes close to the characteristics of our current one...or at least I am willing to try it...and hope the ITTF is willing to seek further improvement in it if it is released and found to be sub-standard. I hope Adham can assure us the ITTF will do everything in its power to attempt to achieve this end at least.

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