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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2012, 00:32 
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Thank you Mr. Sharara for taking the time to come here occasionally and actually attempting to address the concerns of forum members. Whether I (or anyone else) agrees with you doesn't matter. I appreciate the fact that as the elected President of our International Table Tennis Federation that you are willing to take the time to read and respond to the (mostly) amateur club players who frequent this forum.

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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2012, 03:37 
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Well, as nobody else has done so....

I would be delighted with an Olympic Tt ticket! I now live only 25 mins away from the stadium and work in London.

I also grew up less than 2 miles from the Olympic track.

If my post is too late so be it. In terms of 'nice' things to say, I do not know adham or his character so I am in no position to judge, but I most definitely admire the fact that he responds here. It is a thankless task and the abuse/distrust from some quarters is relentless.

Similar to debater I would also return an offer for adham or his team to visit and listen to grassroots players in the locality; some of my training venues are only a short cab ride away.

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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2012, 03:40 
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Tassie52 wrote:
But all of this distracts us from the real issue: Adham Sharara comes here and everything he says is immediately disputed by some members. If he came on here and suggested that daylight occurs when the sun comes up, certain forum members would immediately argue that it wasn't true, that he was using smoke and mirrors to obscure the truth, and if it is true then somehow or other he is lining his pockets as a result of it.

Quite frankly, it beats me why he even bothers to try.


Oh baloney. A lot of what he has said on this subject just doesn't add up or make much sense. Maybe the problem is that he isn't very careful with what he says? Maybe if he limited himself to making statements that were simply true things would go more smoothly and more of us could accept what he says. If the simple truth is that the Chinese government is mandating that the production of celluloid be stopped in China and that's all he really knows, then maybe it would have been better not to bring up health issues - equating celluloid health hazards with asbestos - when he either can't or won't provide support for the assertion. Maybe it would have been better not to claim a worldwide ban. Maybe he should have left out the reference to the film industry's move to digital technology that makes no sense and has no connection to celluloid manufacturing. Of course keeping it simple like that is hard to do when you are on record saying the ITTF wants to eliminate the use of celluloid for two reasons - and neither of those reasons is because China is stopping celluloid production.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a fairly consistent explanation. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that explanations would be backed up with verifiable information. I mean, if you tell me horses can fly, isn't it reasonable for me to ask where the wings are?

I still don't see why the ITTF had to do much of anything at all. The rules were in place to allow the new poly ball. Just start using it in tournaments when it is widely available and a mature enough product to be accepted. You don't like the ball tolerances and the fact that manufacturers make balls at the lower end of them? Fine - change the tolerances for all balls - or at least announce your intention to tighten the tolerances in the future to encourage the makers of the new ball to produce balls closer to 40mm. The evidence seems clear that you do not need the nearly 1mm of tolerance previously given to produce celluloid balls. High quality 3* balls are consistently within about a +/-0.1 mm range in diameter.

But this is mostly a re-hash of a re-hash. After all of the hashing about we still have unsubstantiated claims from Adham and the ITTF. I guess that's just the way it will be.

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Last edited by wturber on 27 Jun 2012, 05:39, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2012, 03:58 
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Jay, given yours is the first post to follow mine I'd like to be clear that I do not regard your posts as abusive! Actually they are very well thought out and I look forward to them. Keith.

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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2012, 04:02 
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Even if we were to accept that a ban on celluloid was true, I don't see how changing from celluloid to plastic requires a .5mm ball size increase.

I'm sorry to say that this fits an established ITTF pattern of claiming there is a crisis or problem and using that as an excuse to make unrelated changes.

For example...

We were asked to accept that speed glue was banned for health purposes. If true, why all of a sudden were tuners with no VOCs (such as baby oil) also banned?

We were asked to accept that a minimum friction level is required to stop treatment of pips out rubbers by manufacturers. If true, then why not just ban treated rubbers? Why were some untreated long pips also banned?

We were asked to accept that the aspect ratio must be changed to prevent long pips from "kinking." If true, why not just ban rubbers that kink? Also how did short pips (which obviously don't "kink") get included in this ban?

I invite Adham to attend the current World Veterans Championships (an ITTF event) going on right now in Stockholm, Sweden. I invite him to note how many players are using long pips and how well the current ball size is performing.

There's an old saying "If it ain't broken, don't fix it."

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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2012, 04:33 
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Calling out someone who made unsubstantiated claims is abusive? This is news to me. It seems like some posters here prefer not to ask hard questions... An elected ITTF president is not a King. The fact is all softball questions that were lobbed to ITTF always got a standardized reply back... It's always the "We know best, we have all the experts and leaders in the world backing up our decisions, so either you accept it or not it doesn't really matter" type of official line. It doesn't clear anything or help anyone. Here in the U.S. we ask much harder questions to our own President to get to the bottom line.


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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2012, 05:04 
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so_devo wrote:
Jay, given yours is the first post to follow mine I'd like to be clear that I do not regard your posts as abusive! Actually they are very well thought out and I look forward to them. Keith.


Thanks. Aside from Adham not answering questions or providing substantiation for important claims, the biggest frustration I have in all of this is that I have no inherent bias against a seamless poly ball. I can see potential benefits from it. I just would prefer to see the benefits realized before wholesale committing to a new poly ball.

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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2012, 05:13 
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RR, I didn't call your posts abusive or anyone's in particular. But I would say it fair that generally you distrust adhams replies, yes?

look, I am not starting any flame wars here. Anyone who knows me personally will know I am so not anti- pips (try chrisbuer or andrewh13 for starters) and anyone who has ever played alongside me knows I couldn't give two hoot about bats I play against. The most I will ever ask is which is the pips side? And my standard ain't too bad and includes some decent scalps. Heck, even my favoured doubles partner is double pips out.

My point is that forums are good and bad places. Ooak is generally exceptionally good but it seems that despite adham posting here he doesn't g et afforded the same courtesy that other members do. Anonymity is a good and bad thing too, abused is some quarters (not you, nor mnnb). But hey, half of my quote was distrustful, and I think you qualify there (with reason you'd argue)

My overriding point is i would rather have adham onboard than alienated. There is a limit to the thickness of anyone's skin.

I won't enter into a debate about this, no one ever 'wins'

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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2012, 05:31 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
Even if we were to accept that a ban on celluloid was true, I don't see how changing from celluloid to plastic requires a .5mm ball size increase.


It doesn't. But you can make a reasonable justification for new tolerance standards independent of the poly ball.

For instance, I would have understood and I doubt I'd have complained if the ITTF had come out and said something like, "We are dismayed that all manufacturers of top quality balls are producing balls that consistently measure about 0.3mm smaller than 40mm. We gave manufacturers a wide tolerance to allow for the challenges of manufacturing a celluloid ball, not so that manufacturers could consistently make a undersized ball. The manufacturers have demonstrated that they do not need such a wide tolerance by their consistent delivery of their highest quality balls at sizes 0.3mm smaller than 40mm. Therefore we are narrowing the tolerance range to 39.85mm to 40.15 mm to encourage the production of balls that are very close to the intended 40mm size. This new tolerance range will go into affect in two years to allow manufactures a reasonable chance to make the adjustment. "

That would be an example of the ITTF saying in effect, "We said 40mm and that's what we meant." Fair enuf.

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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2012, 06:44 
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wturber wrote:
mynamenotbob wrote:
Even if we were to accept that a ban on celluloid was true, I don't see how changing from celluloid to plastic requires a .5mm ball size increase.


It doesn't. But you can make a reasonable justification for new tolerance standards independent of the poly ball.

For instance, I would have understood and I doubt I'd have complained if the ITTF had come out and said something like, "We are dismayed that all manufacturers of top quality balls are producing balls that consistently measure about 0.3mm smaller than 40mm. We gave manufacturers a wide tolerance to allow for the challenges of manufacturing a celluloid ball, not so that manufacturers could consistently make a undersized ball. The manufacturers have demonstrated that they do not need such a wide tolerance by their consistent delivery of their highest quality balls at sizes 0.3mm smaller than 40mm. Therefore we are narrowing the tolerance range to 39.85mm to 40.15 mm to encourage the production of balls that are very close to the intended 40mm size. This new tolerance range will go into affect in two years to allow manufactures a reasonable chance to make the adjustment. "

That would be an example of the ITTF saying in effect, "We said 40mm and that's what we meant." Fair enuf.

That's a good point, but considering the new ball went into effect in October 2000, if the ball actually being physically over 40mm was such a big issue they would have addressed it then. Instead 39.65mm was a perfectly acceptable standard for over a decade.

The stated purpose of the original increase from 38mm to 40mm was to make the sport more attractive to spectators sitting hundreds of feet away by making the ball marginally easier to see. A secondary rationale was that because the bigger ball moves slower and has reduced spin there would less points won by tricky spins which non-playing spectators don't understand or appreciate.

Since the current big ball pretty much failed to achieve those objectives over 12 years, rather than admit their mistake the ITTF is going "all in" on this fantasy that an even bigger, even slower, even less spinny, even more bouncy ball will dumb down the sport enough that any general sports fan can understand it and table tennis will suddenly be transformed into this super entertaining prime time TV sport.

That's not going to happen. The game is what it is: far more a participatory sport than a spectator sport. A .5mm increase won't make any difference to spectators sitting miles away in the cheap seats. But it makes all the difference to those actually playing the game. The basis of this whole game is spin.

Adham, you recently asked the Swedish Olympic Committee the following question...

"Are we, the leaders in sport, allowed to play God?"

I have to say that is exactly what the ITTF is doing in making radical change after radical change to our beloved sport. There is nothing wrong with the game in its current state. Please leave it alone for awhile and let us enjoy it.

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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2012, 07:01 
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Mnnb,

You were doing well until the last sentence... ;)



*I can see this reply coming from ITTF already: "Of course you can still use anything you like, and play the game the way you like... Only ITTF sanctioned events are affected."


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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2012, 07:08 
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roundrobin wrote:
*I can see this reply coming from ITTF already: "Of course you can still use anything you like, and play the game the way you like... Only ITTF sanctioned events are affected."

If only that were true. :(

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PostPosted: 28 Jun 2012, 02:57 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
That's a good point, but considering the new ball went into effect in October 2000, if the ball actually being physically over 40mm was such a big issue they would have addressed it then. Instead 39.65mm was a perfectly acceptable standard for over a decade.


I can imagine how after creating the mandate to re-tool to 40mm, that the ITTF may have been reluctant to shortly afterwards insist on a narrower specification - forcing even more expense and re-tooling. So I would not expect immediate changes to the spec in any case, but would expect (if the 39.65mm size were a real concern) a significant protest/complaint fairly early on so that the manufacturers wouldn't be surprised by a narrowing of the spec in the future after the manufacturers had a reasonable chance to recover from the costs of the initial 40mm change.

I don't recall ever hearing such complaints. But perhaps they were made but not made publicly.

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PostPosted: 28 Jun 2012, 03:11 
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The celluloid ball will be phased out without ever having the specs changed. The new specs apply only to the bigger ball. To me, this has the appearance of a classic example of Rahm Emanuel crisis management in practice:

"You never want a serious crisis (celluloid ban) to go to waste. And what I mean by that is an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before (another ball size increase)."

I don't think the AGM would vote to increase the ball size again. This "crisis" (whether real or manufactured) diverts everyone's attention and sneaks in the bigger ball as an "earmark" in political terms.

EDIT: I added the words "has the appearance" in paragraph one.

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PostPosted: 28 Jun 2012, 03:27 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
The celluloid ball will be phased out without ever having the specs changed. The new specs apply only to the bigger ball. To me, this is a classic example of Rahm Emanuel crisis management in practice:

"You never want a serious crisis (celluloid ban) to go to waste. And what I mean by that is an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before (another ball size increase)."

I don't think the AGM would vote to increase the ball size again. This "crisis" (whether real or manufactured) diverts everyone's attention and sneaks in the bigger ball as an "earmark" in political terms.


Yeah - I should have said "tolerance", not "specification." It is the tolerance that is changing.

Yes. I agree that this fits the pattern you outlined above and seems like a very plausible scenario. It takes advantage of the situation that, "If you have to re-tool anyway you may as well re-tool to get a "true 40mm" (though the tolerance change instead virtually guarantees a ball larger than 40mm."

And, unfortunately, history shows us that people will create a "crisis" precisely so that they can take advantage of this. Politicians do this about as readily as they take a breath of air. The "invented" or "inevitable" bit is the part of the TT ball story that we may never know the truth about.

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