OOAK Table Tennis Forum
http://ooakforum.com/

What makes Joo special among defenders?
http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=29635
Page 1 of 3

Author:  Lorre [ 04 Apr 2016, 22:53 ]
Post subject:  What makes Joo special among defenders?

I've just watched a compilation of young Joo's best shots of 2004 and I keep asking me this question: what makes Joo so special in comparison with other modern defenders? Not one young modern defender even competes at the level Joo competed at his young age. Why is that?

Is it pure talent? The versatility of his FH? His pips?
Community, enlighten me. :lol:

Ow yes: why do you think he turned more defensive when getting older? His disease? Injuries?

Author:  dunc [ 05 Apr 2016, 09:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: What makes Joo special among defenders?

There are 3 specific elements of Joo's game which stand him out from other defenders in my opinion:

- His forehand chop. A lot of modern defenders don't use this at all, but it's one of Joo's greatest attributes
- The penetrative element of his forehand loop, eg. how often he scores points with his forehand in comparison to other modern defenders
- His agility. He's so quick, so agile

However, I think the real key is his consistency. He's just the best actual defender. Even against the Chinese he returns shots that no normal human should be able to return.

Author:  auzcar [ 07 Apr 2016, 23:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: What makes Joo special among defenders?

dunc wrote:
There are 3 specific elements of Joo's game which stand him out from other defenders in my opinion:

- His forehand chop. A lot of modern defenders don't use this at all, but it's one of Joo's greatest attributes
- The penetrative element of his forehand loop, eg. how often he scores points with his forehand in comparison to other modern defenders
- His agility. He's so quick, so agile

However, I think the real key is his consistency. He's just the best actual defender. Even against the Chinese he returns shots that no normal human should be able to return.


I agree with dunc on every point and the simple answer is that he's just more consistent compared to the other defenders, he gets more balls back with lots of spin, low height and good length. The second thing is his finishing power on the FH, when he gets an opportunity and goes for it it's usually his point. I think he could've used his FH more throughout his career though, he gets a bit "lazy" and comfy IMHO.

EDIT: I want to add balance as well, how he manages to keep his balance and form in some situations is just jaw dropping.

Author:  leatherback [ 08 Apr 2016, 00:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: What makes Joo special among defenders?

I would say it's his chop. Both forehand and backhand. I know his forehand loop is good and wins him many points but that is only because his chop yields weaker balls that he capitalizes on....I've said it before but if you honestly compare quality of forehands among defenders joo would be in third behind gionis and hou yingchao....it is still world class but it's his concentration on the heavy heavy chop in a time where no one else was playing with that much spin that allowed him to reach where he is.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

Author:  dunc [ 08 Apr 2016, 00:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: What makes Joo special among defenders?

leatherback wrote:
I would say it's his chop. Both forehand and backhand. I know his forehand loop is good and wins him many points but that is only because his chop yields weaker balls that he capitalizes on....I've said it before but if you honestly compare quality of forehands among defenders joo would be in third behind gionis and hou yingchao....it is still world class but it's his concentration on the heavy heavy chop in a time where no one else was playing with that much spin that allowed him to reach where he is.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

I think Gionis' forehand technique and power is second to none amongst defenders, yep. Hou on the other hand plays some absolute *worldy* forehand loop winners... but he also misses a lot. Sometimes he tries to be too flashy and ends up missing relatively simple balls.

For me though, Joo picks the right ball and places it much better than either Gionis or Hou. Gionis almost over-uses his forehand so attackers get quite used to it. Joo doesn't use his forehand as often (now, although I guess he did when he was younger) and I suspect that if we analysed their games we'd see that Joo's point-winning forehand is significant % higher than Gionis.

Hou could've been the best defender of all time.. but his mental attitude is terrible in comparison to Joo. That's another thing we should probably mention in this thread, Joo is a serious battler. I've seen him pull some amazing games out of the bag when he's been behind or in close situations. Hou on the other hand only plays really well against better players. Often loses concentration and mucks about against players he sees as being below him.

Author:  dunc [ 08 Apr 2016, 00:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: What makes Joo special among defenders?

So, er, to summarise... Joo is amazing at everything :rofl:

Author:  RebornTTEvnglist [ 08 Apr 2016, 03:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: What makes Joo special among defenders?

I think to begin with Joo is a more exciting player to watch. His movements just seem more accentuated to say Gionis. Might have something to do with his body structure, in comparison, but probably in combination with technique and reflexes. Might even come down to things like facial expressions and the way each guy celebrates points - of course this is not related to how special their game is exactly, but how they endear fans....but it does emanate out of the person/player, which all ties in with who they are and what we see in them.

I think this little highlights vid is a good summary of Joo's skills. Note the guy with the OOAK forum shirt on at 3.25 or so :lol: Also at 3.53 Joo plays a shot that I love to play when I get the chance, (which is probably about 5 times a season if I'm lucky :lol: )...but its such a good feeling to hit a kill shot with the pips straight down the line.



Author:  GrumpyJoe [ 08 Apr 2016, 08:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: What makes Joo special among defenders?

Let me first start of with, IMO I really don't consider Joo a Modern Defender. He is more a Classic Defender. In the video above I counted about 4-5 times where he just puts the ball back into play. Unlike Gionis, Weixing or Filus just to name a few where they will use their FH to... I don't want to call it lobbing for position but they will a lot of times just put back into play. Where Joo is either chopping or attacking. Again, IMO it is harder to play against a Classic Defender that attacks and attacks very well like Joo does. He keeps his opponent under pressure with every shot. That, is what keeps him above the rest of the other defenders.

Author:  iskandar taib [ 20 Apr 2016, 20:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: What makes Joo special among defenders?

I must say, I found Gionis's chop to be more spectacular. When most choppers (including Joo) chop the chops start getting higher and higher. With Gionis, though, they're low and long and sneak in right over the net.

Is there anyone that twiddles and chops? Who can chop from either side with long pips OR inverted, AND loop from either side with inverted? If someone of Joo's caliber could master this it would be deadly.

Iskandar

Author:  so_devo [ 21 Apr 2016, 03:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: What makes Joo special among defenders?

Above all the comments above, there is also just a factor about Joo where he is so personable, likeable, and you feel you want to support him and he appreciates the support. That was borne out in his interview for the forum a while back.

Author:  RebornTTEvnglist [ 21 Apr 2016, 14:36 ]
Post subject:  Re: What makes Joo special among defenders?

so_devo wrote:
Above all the comments above, there is also just a factor about Joo where he is so personable, likeable, and you feel you want to support him and he appreciates the support. That was borne out in his interview for the forum a while back.


Good point so_devo, and well said! :up:

Author:  Def-attack [ 21 Apr 2016, 15:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: What makes Joo special among defenders?

iskandar taib wrote:
I must say, I found Gionis's chop to be more spectacular. When most choppers (including Joo) chop the chops start getting higher and higher. With Gionis, though, they're low and long and sneak in right over the net.

Is there anyone that twiddles and chops? Who can chop from either side with long pips OR inverted, AND loop from either side with inverted? If someone of Joo's caliber could master this it would be deadly.

Iskandar

Masato Shiono does that. But his FH attack is too weak.

Author:  dunc [ 21 Apr 2016, 17:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: What makes Joo special among defenders?

iskandar taib wrote:
Is there anyone that twiddles and chops? Who can chop from either side with long pips OR inverted, AND loop from either side with inverted? If someone of Joo's caliber could master this it would be deadly.

Ruwen Filus is probably the closest, though he rarely chops on FH.

From my perspective as an amateur - and this is probably true for professionals too - having to learn extra shots just means you make a greater number of mistakes. I think this is why defenders peak later - more shots to perfect.

Say myself and my friend (both 1000 hours of play, he's an attacker, I'm a defender) are playing against each other. He has a forehand loop or a forehand block to play off the table. I have a loop, a roll and a chop. That makes me 33% more likely to make a mistake as I will have been able to practice those strokes less often than my opponent has practised his. It also means that I have an extra shot to choose from, an extra choice to make in a millisecond as the ball is flying towards me - and obviously therefore higher chance of error.

Author:  Lorre [ 21 Apr 2016, 19:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: What makes Joo special among defenders?

A lot of interesting answers. :up:
Now, why did he turn more defensive later on in his career?

Author:  birding&table.tennis [ 22 Apr 2016, 03:36 ]
Post subject:  Re: What makes Joo special among defenders?

Another aspect of Joo's game I'd describe is his having a symbiotic relationship between his defense and offense. In other words, Joo's defense helps his offense and his offense helps his defense.

Defense Helping Offense: In one of Joo's interviews (I am not sure if it is our OOAK Forum interview), he says that his defense often sets up his offense. We often see this when he chops down the line with his backhand, which is then followed by a powerful forehand loop by Joo if the attacker loops toward Joo's forehand. We also see this when he does heavy chops on his forehand, which is again followed by a tremendous loop if the attacker performs a slower, higher loop.

Offense Helping Defense: To me, Joo's offense helps his defense because attackers know that they must aggressively loop Joo's chops, otherwise they will face Joo's loop. This results in the offensive players making more errors against Joo's chops, since they must perform riskier loops.

So, to me, it seems that Joo's symbiotic defense/offense is more effective than the backhand chopping/forehand fishing of modern defenders such as Gionis, Filus, and Chen, and also more successful compared to the classic defense of Shiono.

Steven

Page 1 of 3 All times are UTC + 9:30 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/