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 Post subject: Twiddling
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2014, 12:17 
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I hope this isn't a horse beat topic...

I have a cheap 729 6030 Cpen blade that I use as my second setup. This is my intro blade into the world of LP. I'm starting off with 755 LP on the FH and Geospin Tacky on the BH. But that's neither here nor there.

I'm doing a lot of amazing blocking and pushing with some sharp re-directioning close to the table, however when I want to loop or smash, (or confuse my opponent) I need to twiddle. I also typically serve on the geospin tacky side, and therefore need to twiddle to the lp side on the forehand to get back to the blocking/backhand/punch block game.

I typically play Jpen, so twiddling has been completely off my radar. With a Cpen grip, I CAN'T Twiddle fast enough! I'm successful twiddling off the serve, but during the game is only about 70%..and sometimes I have to use my 2nd hand to stabilize the bat! I need help/advice on this.

PS- I am LOVING LPs btw!!! Amazing what I am doing to the conventional players I use to lose to...really suits my style.

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 Post subject: Re: Twiddling
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2014, 13:53 
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if those 729 handle are small thin, it must be slippery when you twidlle..imo, wrapping up the handle with badminton grip would make it comfortable.

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 Post subject: Re: Twiddling
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2014, 16:39 
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If I decide to learn how to twiddle cpen I will select a good quality video of Zhou Xintong, isolate a good example, and watch it as slowly as necessary or frame by frame with suitable software. Her hand goes wide open for an instant, the blade spinning in space. I would just learn in bed at first!

Then, as someone else here suggested, I would twiddle while my mind is engaged with something else, to automatize it. ("While watching TV" was the suggestion.)

I bet she could spin it all the way around if she wanted to. That would be intimidating. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Twiddling
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2014, 22:28 
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poknas wrote:
if those 729 handle are small thin, it must be slippery when you twidlle..imo, wrapping up the handle with badminton grip would make it comfortable.


Great advice. The lack of grip in the handle is a problem. However when i watch Cpen twiddlers, it seems as if their hands float around the paddle, making the grip a non issue (until u have to stop the paddle that is.)

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 Post subject: Re: Twiddling
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2014, 22:38 
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Zhaoyang wrote:
If I decide to learn how to twiddle cpen I will select a good quality video of Zhou Xintong, isolate a good example, and watch it as slowly as necessary or frame by frame with suitable software. Her hand goes wide open for an instant, the blade spinning in space. I would just learn in bed at first!

Then, as someone else here suggested, I would twiddle while my mind is engaged with something else, to automatize it. ("While watching TV" was the suggestion.)

I bet she could spin it all the way around if she wanted to. That would be intimidating. :-)


Any videos of her that you know of?

The practicing idea with lots of repetition is also great advice, and something I've already begun doing. I need to hammer this in to my muscle memory.

I'm wondering if she is lifting the whole bat, and using the upward momentum to suspend the bat in mid air for a split second before initiating the rotation.

What I would wonder is how she is initiating the spin once the bat is "floating?" Her fingers must make contact somewhere... Or perhaps her palm..

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 Post subject: Re: Twiddling
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2014, 22:50 
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Here's where I first saw this idea. It was in a video of Chen Longcan demonstrating how it's done.



I've been playing this style (inverted/LP twiddle game) for a couple months now and the good news is that it doesn't take long to get fast at it.

Here's a doubles match I played where if you look closely, you'll see me twiddle sometimes... Mostly on service return. (the red is the LP).. I'm the penholder in white



For the record, I adopted a more curved fingers approach to help with closing my backhand quickly some time ago. I've since found that it also helps with twiddle speed. Less fingers get in the way. If my fingers were extended on the back of my paddle that would certainly slow down the twiddle speed.

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 Post subject: Re: Twiddling
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2014, 23:32 
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I've been trying to get fast at Cpen twiddling for a while using the Chen Longcan method. But although I can get the racket flipped over fairly fast, getting it precisely locked in to the exactly right finger hold is still a problem. I often end up needing another fraction of a second to adjust the grip which makes it hard to twiddle at game speed.

You can watch Jian Fang Lay twiddle at the beginning of almost every point. She waits to receive serve with inverted and most of the time she twiddles to long pips to make the return.

One of the local Michigan players is a very good (2200-2300 US) pushblocker originally from China, he simply uses his free hand to help turn the racket, usually does it after a serve with inverted. Guess there is no reason not to use that hand. It's not doing much else.


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 Post subject: Re: Twiddling
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2014, 23:41 
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fleetwood999 wrote:
I've been trying to get fast at Cpen twiddling for a while using the Chen Longcan method. But although I can get the racket flipped over fairly fast, getting it precisely locked in to the exactly right finger hold is still a problem. I often end up needing another fraction of a second to adjust the grip which makes it hard to twiddle at game speed.

You can watch Jian Fang Lay twiddle at the beginning of almost every point. She waits to receive serve with inverted and most of the time she twiddles to long pips to make the return.

One of the local Michigan players is a very good (2200-2300 US) pushblocker originally from China, he simply uses his free hand to help turn the racket, usually does it after a serve with inverted. Guess there is no reason not to use that hand. It's not doing much else.


I have the exact same problem, and I've been doing what the player in the video you posted does, which is to use my free hand during serves. Looks kinda bush, but it works I suppose.

However, that only works for service, and not necessarily during game play because using the free hand might not be doable if you're balancing with it outwardly when you make big movements. Kinda like running with your hands clasped together versus pumping at your sides.

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 Post subject: Re: Twiddling
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2014, 23:47 
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suds79 wrote:
Here's where I first saw this idea. It was in a video of Chen Longcan demonstrating how it's done.





Thanks, I actually saw that video on youtube, and that's what I've been attempting to emulate.

I just found this video of Ma Lin twiddling before a serve, he uses a side motion to sort of throw the blade over. The blade is more horizontal in this case.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReqV-f9bMsY[/youtube]

Don't know why that video wont display as a player, so here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReqV-f9bMsY

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 Post subject: Re: Twiddling
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2014, 00:19 
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fleetwood999 wrote:
I've been trying to get fast at Cpen twiddling for a while using the Chen Longcan method. But although I can get the racket flipped over fairly fast, getting it precisely locked in to the exactly right finger hold is still a problem.


Right. I use to get this. When you loosen the grip, the paddle slides down and your final grip is deeper down the handle then it would normally be. It's almost like you need your second hand to push it up nice & tight in your normal grip right?

I ran into this also. Two solutions.

1 - Twiddle with the blade pointing towards the side, or flat or head facing up. Basically the idea is not to twiddle with the head facing down where gravity pulls it down away from your hand.

2 - (this works for me because of my grip) adopt the curved fingers method. Not only will it make twiddling faster, but after you twiddle, as you curve your fingers in the position I show below here, it tends to pull the blade up against your hand nice & tight.


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 Post subject: Re: Twiddling
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2014, 01:47 
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Japsican:
I can't remember where I found my best video of her for this (clear and close).

Viewing frame-by-frame with VLC, I think she is much cleaner/crisper than the Chen Longcan video above, as she seems to recover to the right grip without hitching up, etc. I'll try to post a frame-by-frame here soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Twiddling
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2014, 02:16 
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suds79 wrote:
Right. I use to get this. When you loosen the grip, the paddle slides down and your final grip is deeper down the handle then it would normally be. It's almost like you need your second hand to push it up nice & tight in your normal grip right?

Exactly what my issue is.

suds79 wrote:
1 - Twiddle with the blade pointing towards the side, or flat or head facing up. Basically the idea is not to twiddle with the head facing down where gravity pulls it down away from your hand.

That sounds like the Ma Lin method at the link I posted above. IS that what you mean? I'll re-post the link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReqV-f9bMsY
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 Post subject: Re: Twiddling
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2014, 03:22 
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Japsican wrote:
suds79 wrote:
Right. I use to get this. When you loosen the grip, the paddle slides down and your final grip is deeper down the handle then it would normally be. It's almost like you need your second hand to push it up nice & tight in your normal grip right?

Exactly what my issue is.

suds79 wrote:
1 - Twiddle with the blade pointing towards the side, or flat or head facing up. Basically the idea is not to twiddle with the head facing down where gravity pulls it down away from your hand.

That sounds like the Ma Lin method at the link I posted above. IS that what you mean? I'll re-post the link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReqV-f9bMsY
SMOOTH


Yes I suppose it's relatively flat when he does it.

But test it out. try a twiddle with the head facing up. You'll have no sliding issues.

All I can say is keep practicing it. Before you know it you'll be twiddling pretty fast and you won't even think about the sliding issue anymore. It's hard to explain but you naturally find ways around that. Either by facing the blade up when you twiddle or you'll learn subtle finger "scrunches" or tricks on the backside of the paddle to grab the blade and squeeze it up into your grip. It just comes with time.

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 Post subject: Re: Twiddling
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2014, 03:32 
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Consecutive frames:
paddle is projected outward not upward (1-3)
the hand opens (4)
the paddle twirls around the index finger (5-7) (not spinning freely as I said) < the magic is here.
the thumb comes down and clamps in the right place (8-10)
After this the index finger comes around. She doesn't have to hitch up or adjust because the thumb has clamped the right spot.

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 Post subject: Re: Twiddling
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2014, 04:29 
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Zhaoyang wrote:
Consecutive frames:
paddle is projected outward not upward (1-3)
the hand opens (4)
the paddle twirls around the index finger (5-7) (not spinning freely as I said) < the magic is here.
the thumb comes down and clamps in the right place (8-10)
After this the index finger comes around. She doesn't have to hitch up or adjust because the thumb has clamped the right spot.


Zhaoyang! AMAZING! Thanks for taking the time to find the video and post stills. I'm assuming the final frame is one short. She then has to bring her index finger around. Yes?

Is this video hosted online so we can see it in motion?

Many, many, many thanks! If you were here I'd buy you a beer. :) :rock:

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