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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2014, 00:45 
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I tend to loop with my forehand inverted rubber, but block with my backhand LPs. My game with the LPs, is definitely a push/block style where I catch the ball quickly off the bounce and surprise my opponent with a fast ball at angles. This is proving to be very effective, and when I get better rubber (converting to Spinlord Zeitgheist), I think it will be even more deadly. Thus, the penhold grip has been good for LP play on the block, but terrible for the forehand...perhaps you can help.

Here's the issue with Penhold LPs: my forehand is my backhand block, vs. Shakehand where your backhand block can easily become your forehand inverted (without twiddling). My twiddling has vastly improved, but i'm still not fast enough to flip to my forehand inverted side from LP blocking mode (keep in mind Cpen). This is the kind of thing that makes me think about converting to shakehand. :@

So, I have 2 questions from you Long Pippers:

How do I return a deep float or slow topspin balls to my forehand ball with the LPs? I have tried opening up the bat, and returning it, but that always results in easy balls that get killed. Ideally, I'd like to loop from my forehand.

EDIT:
This is for advice with my CPEN setup, which is not in my signature. 729 6030 OFF Blade with RITC 755 LP/Geospin Tacky inverted.

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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2014, 01:45 
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Japsican, I'm not sure I understand your first two paragraphs correctly.

I've played with long pips only a dozen times but I'll tell you what I think.

Your twiddle is almost there man! And although you want to practice without using the other hand, and wouldn't want to become dependent on it, you CAN use it in play for now.

You should pick a model player and study videos. Do you have a model long-pips player? Many are "impossible" but I like players I can hope to imitate a little. I strongly prefer certain females for this reason.

I don't remember 755, but D388-1 OX is very easy to play with. It's hard to master, I know, and so the balls can go back too harmless... for now. But I can see great players using it so I can trust that it can be done. I can also see great players using double inverted. Pick your poison!

You should ask the forum which prominent players (with videos) play cpen inverted/lp (I'm sure there is one), even better, inverted/755 (might not be one, now). Someone who plays cpen grippy-pips/long-pips would work too. It need not be a top ten or top 100 player, just someone obviously - vastly - better, some national champions for example. Sometimes you could judge from their ratings that they are outrageously good despite their games sometimes looking just ordinary.


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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2014, 03:16 
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Zhaoyang wrote:
Japsican, I'm not sure I understand your first two paragraphs correctly.

I've played with long pips only a dozen times but I'll tell you what I think.

Your twiddle is almost there man! And although you want to practice without using the other hand, and wouldn't want to become dependent on it, you CAN use it in play for now.


Hey Zhao! Thanks! I am trying :) .

To clarify my first 2 paragraphs:
Cpen forces me to use the same side for both backhand (non-rpb) and forehand. So when switching from my backhand block, the same side (LPs) ends up being my forehand as well. My issue is when I get dead balls or low topsin balls on the forehand (especially the deep ones), I struggle sending those back.

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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2014, 03:50 
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I experience long pips OX as generally flying straight off the front of my blade (Mazunov, admittedly an overkill blade) when punched, and the speed can be plenty; I don't think I scored any worse with it than grippy pips yesterday. Conceptually, it's about as clean as possible. Often sounded like bare wood too.

It doesn't always fly straight off; sometimes the ball sticks and then rebounds at an angle.
First of all, I think it will be interesting to see if I can isolate when and why it sticks, to maybe employ that at will.
Secondly, I have an idea which I think is probably true, that one purpose of the Zhou/Deng "sweep" is to pull fresh, not-yet-bent pips under the ball to prevent this stickage. After a while I completely forgot to test that last night.
Lastly, I suspect that thin sponge would smooth the onset of this stickage and make it more useable (for those who want to use it). I'm going to stick with OX for now because the extreme case is interesting.

To answer your question, as brushing doesn't do much, I punched everything as hard as I though I could land, or laid off and dropped it short or at an angle. One of the nicest things was pushing spinny serves back short. That's all I know.


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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2014, 04:00 
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Zhaoyang wrote:
.
Secondly, I have an idea which I think is probably true, that one purpose of the Zhou/Deng "sweep" is to pull fresh, not-yet-bent pips under the ball to prevent this stickage. After a while I completely forgot to test that last night.


The Zhou/Deng sweep? :^)

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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2014, 04:10 
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Edited-in answer to the above: Sorry, the Zhou Xintong/Deng Yaping characteristic sideways brush. (In the case of Deng Yaping it was often fake, leaving the opponent not knowing whether the ball slipped (755 you know) or stuck).

When I play with inverted I must watch the opponent's spin to avoid a rebound from my rubber at an unexpected angle; that's the dominant reason.
When I play with long pips I must watch the opponent's spin so I can anticipate the aerodynamic consequences when the ball is sent back to him off my rubber.

Make the correct decision about whether it will sail or hook down and then flat hit as hard as that calculation will permit and/or at an angle. With OX add a brush to prevent stickage; with sponge add a brush to prevent or regulate stickage. That is my current understanding. (But I told you I'm just a newbie.)


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PostPosted: 15 Apr 2014, 05:15 
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Japsican wrote:
How do I return a deep float or slow topspin balls to my forehand ball with the LPs? I have tried opening up the bat, and returning it, but that always results in easy balls that get killed. Ideally, I'd like to loop from my forehand.


I play the same style you do and have a few monthly with LPs so where's what I'd try.

One, you'll notice (and your partners will also) that if you start returning all serves with just your long pips, they'll start to dumb them down. IE - serve long no spin balls or slight topspin. If you see this trend, keep them honest by returning a serve with your inverted forehand and loop the %$#* out of that ball. Usually one attempt will throw them off just enough to go back to mixing in their spiny serves which works with your long pips. It's a mind game.

I always keep my paddle below the table also so they don't know I'm twiddling. If your arm moves when you twiddle (as you get better it won't anymore), then don't forget to mimic that movement under the table without actually twiddling. Just in case they're picking up on that queue.

Secondly, lets say you stay on your LPs on your forehand and you get this serve, I personally would try to learn to loop that ball. That's what I like about LPs. Doesn't seem like the stroke is that different from hitting topspin or backspin when you do a looping motion. The differences are subtle. Anyways, back on point. So you have LPs on your forehand. You see the serve that's floatly or slight topspin and you want no part of the LPs on that. Furthermore, you're not fast enough to twiddle then hit. Well then give your best Zhang Jike (or Wang Hao would be more appropriate I suppose) imitation and perform the backhand (which is your inverted) over the table loop. Doing that shot on a float or topspin ball should be easy pickings.

Watch Wang Hao explain here how he performs the penhold over the table loop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrrIDgT6TnY#t=27m31s

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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2014, 11:51 
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Zhaoyang wrote:
Edited-in answer to the above: Sorry, the Zhou Xintong/Deng Yaping characteristic sideways brush. (In the case of Deng Yaping it was often fake, leaving the opponent not knowing whether the ball slipped (755 you know) or stuck).

When I play with inverted I must watch the opponent's spin to avoid a rebound from my rubber at an unexpected angle; that's the dominant reason.
When I play with long pips I must watch the opponent's spin so I can anticipate the aerodynamic consequences when the ball is sent back to him off my rubber.

Make the correct decision about whether it will sail or hook down and then flat hit as hard as that calculation will permit and/or at an angle. With OX add a brush to prevent stickage; with sponge add a brush to prevent or regulate stickage. That is my current understanding. (But I told you I'm just a newbie.)


Zhaoyang, I have to once again say thanks!! :clap: The sweeping motion, or sideways brush as you put it, was a godsend! After watching several videos of Zhou Xintong, that stroke helped tremendously. I even started pushing the sweep upward to force a loop! It really increased my control on the ball. I still lost most of the points when the guy sent his long forehand slow spin balls, but I returned many of those using a slight chopping/pushing motion...which was weird to do from an extended forehand position...but it worked.

Either way, I won the match and kept the table. :rock:

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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2014, 12:03 
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suds79 wrote:
Furthermore, you're not fast enough to twiddle then hit. Well then give your best Zhang Jike (or Wang Hao would be more appropriate I suppose) imitation and perform the backhand (which is your inverted) over the table loop. Doing that shot on a float or topspin ball should be easy pickings.

Watch Wang Hao explain here how he performs the penhold over the table loop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrrIDgT6TnY#t=27m31s


Suds thanks so much for that! I have seen that, and actually use that technique when a ball is coming toward my centerline, or near my centerline. But the ball I'm speaking of is an extended forehand stroke, in other words, I'm reaching out for the return. To perform the Wang Hao, I'd have to have so sick footwork to get my body in that position.

It's probably my fault as the description in the title of this thread probably wasn't clear . By long "forehand" slow spin balls, I meant MY forehand. ;)

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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2014, 15:15 
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Maybe if you study this series of videos you'll find something of value. This guy plays chinese penhold, blocks with long pips, AND twiddles (though he uses short pips on the other side).



Iskandar


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2014, 17:05 
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I might be in a unique position to answer this since I play modern def shakehand but rpb with double inverted.

You can try RPB with LP on the BH, but you might need to adjust your PH grip to get the right angles. To play LP properly you need an open blade face, so the fingers can't be curled on back but rather placed with the tips more on the face. More like so:

Image

You also need to shave off the corner where the index finger wraps around to hook onto the grip "pad". To use the traditional block you can rotate the blade slight back to the curled fingers position, sort of like jpen players do.

If this doesn't work out, you might as well take the hit and switch to SH. There will be a dip in form for a bit but it's easier than many imagine (couple of ~1800 folks I play with converted recently and it only took a couple months).


Also this question is poorly worded; can't tell what it's asking:
> How do I return a deep float or slow topspin balls to my forehand ball with the LPs?


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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2014, 03:58 
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LPs on RPB I find to be really tough. The natural angle of the blade is closed and with the majority of LP strokes, you want either perfectly flat or ever so slightly open in a lot of cases.

Lets help the OP out. Give him options as he's simply needing to learn how to handle this one type of serve. Not suggest he switch to shakehand. That doesn't help him.

I think the OP needs to work on the deception and twiddle game to where the server doesn't know if it's safe or not to give that long deadish serve to the forehand. Have to return some of those with the inverted and make them pay for that IMO.

Also as iskandar pointed out in his video, watch a lot of Wang Jian Jiang. The man is a wizard with the LPs.

... One more thing. Also a fan of Wang Qiu Yi.

Here's a video where she returns a fair number of serves forehand. (Read is palio CK531a OX. Black is some inverted)


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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2014, 05:33 
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It's MUCH easier to switch to SH than learn to twiddle like Wang Jian Jiang. I've never seen anyone fail at this, whereas RPB failure seems to be the norm (mostly because it's taught wrong).

> The natural angle of the blade is closed

Yes if you retain the same grip as most use for chinese penhold. Frankly even for double inverted players it's easier to change to SH than learn to RPB, because most who teach it come from traditional PH and have mediocre RPB backhand themselves.

I highly recommend those trying RPB to first get the basic grip right and then learn BH strokes from SH players instead.


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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2014, 14:08 
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I don't think Wang J.J. does RPB at all, but he twiddles a lot. I suppose on the mental side of things twiddling penhold would be simpler than twiddling shakehands because you only have one surface to think about at a time. In terms of actual difficulty of manipulation, I don't know.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2014, 14:17 
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To twiddle PH, you need to modify grip anyway (quite high, not deep like PH attacker), and it's more awkward/slower movement than SH twiddle. It has to be planned more ahead of time, ie more tactical, instead of reaction to return.

For heavy PH LP users it's probably better and certainly easier to put LP on FH and RPB with inverted.


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