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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 12:33 
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I'd like to explore this. I never thought I'd say this but with our flagship player floundering a bit it may be coming. I blame the ball. Ma Long, Zhang Jike, Fan Zhendong, Ovtcharov to name a few have such explosive backhands that as a penholder it is hard to hit. Especially with a polyball!


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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 13:37 
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Probably, at least at the highest level of play.
It is not just the new ball. It seems that a lot of the changes ITTF has made since the 38 mm ball era have been detrimental to penholders.
It is not the case SH has gotten better; TT is just a "very different" game right now.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2017, 03:08 
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End of the classical penholders? (Li Ching, Yoshida Kaii, He Zhi Wen, Li Jiao) Probably.

End of JPen? Most likely.

End of semi-classical penholders? Wang Zeng Yi, XX (very forehand oriented. RPB grip is naturally closed and has a small contact area with his fingers spread on the top sheet so it fukks up his wrist every time he does it) maybe in a few years?

End of Penholders? I don't think so. Now I know Xue Fei and Wu Jiaji aren't in their peak yet and to be honest I don't quite like how their RPBs look but this seems to be the way to adapt to the game.
It's possible Penholders will slowly switch to a more shakehand-like game (developing a more open angled grip for RPB side, using CPen Viscarias and playing a more control and placement based game instead of spin far away from the table like XX) but not disappear out right.


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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2017, 19:53 
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Here's a recent video of Xue Fei; one of China's newer penholders.

His strokes are short and explosive and his balls go very fast with low trajectory.
With a little more consistency I think this is where Penhold is going. He looks like once he gets it down, he'd benefit with a carbon blade (like Wong Chun Ting).

Not as enjoyable to watch but this is a style that seems to be more beneficial for the plastic ball.


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PostPosted: 05 Jul 2017, 23:48 
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HuLimei wrote:
Here's a recent video of Xue Fei; one of China's newer penholders.

His strokes are short and explosive and his balls go very fast with low trajectory.
With a little more consistency I think this is where Penhold is going. He looks like once he gets it down, he'd benefit with a carbon blade (like Wong Chun Ting).

Not as enjoyable to watch but this is a style that seems to be more beneficial for the plastic ball.


That is the Junior Asian championship or something right ?

Xue Fei is I think as strong as Ma Lin or Wang Hao. He is built for the FZD era of TT :-D

And I think its difficult for C-pen players to get their consistency high quickly. Tough training for him. Couple of Ma Lin serves and He Zhi Wen returns/serves etc will make him more competitive.


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PostPosted: 06 Jul 2017, 01:12 
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man_iii wrote:
Xue Fei is I think as strong as Ma Lin or Wang Hao. He is built for the FZD era of TT :-D

What do you mean by "strong" ? Physical strength? Skillwise, he's not quite there yet.
Control is what he needs most at least as of when this video is shot. Here he commits many unforced errors as he always seems to go for the kill with his rpb cross court.

I quite like the RPB trajectory though. Seems easier to get shots like that with Chinese rubbers.


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PostPosted: 06 Jul 2017, 04:11 
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HuLimei wrote:
man_iii wrote:
Xue Fei is I think as strong as Ma Lin or Wang Hao. He is built for the FZD era of TT :-D

What do you mean by "strong" ? Physical strength? Skillwise, he's not quite there yet.
Control is what he needs most at least as of when this video is shot. Here he commits many unforced errors as he always seems to go for the kill with his rpb cross court.

I quite like the RPB trajectory though. Seems easier to get shots like that with Chinese rubbers.


I meant that he has the youth, the physical build, the latent ability to readily switch between TPB and RPB as needed. It would be a matter of training to keep increasing his strength and skills to the consistent level that Ma Lin and Wang Hao achieved. I don't think the other youth C-pen players are at Xu Fei's level yet. It is just my opinion :-D :lol:


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PostPosted: 06 Jul 2017, 12:58 
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Maybe at the very top level. This is NOT a new trend, this began in the 1970s and 80s with the Chinese and Japanese switching to shakehands in large numbers. But there are still tons of penholders around, especially when you look a little lower. Like this:



I think most of the players here would beat the pants off most of the people who post here.. :lol: Even in China, though, you'll see somewhat less impressive "super basement" players - ones that don't move much, ones that block from one spot, etc., just as you see in American clubs. They're still 1900+ level players in this video, though. (See around 2:05)

Here's another one:



Those two old guys in the beginning obviously learned to play back in the 1970s or earlier - that's how they played back then. The guy in the "cover still" has rubber that's so old it's worn down around the handle! Probably short pips.

Yes, the game has changed. The larger ball, the banana flick, RPB... but I don't think this is why penhold is rare at the very top levels. It's been that way for at least three decades.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2017, 09:33 
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[quote
Not as enjoyable to watch but this is a style that seems to be more beneficial for the plastic ball.[/quote]

I was wondering why there are fewer long rallies. Xu xin needed to change his mid court looper game.


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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2017, 11:53 
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man_iii wrote:
I meant that he has the youth, the physical build, the latent ability to readily switch between TPB and RPB as needed. It would be a matter of training to keep increasing his strength and skills to the consistent level that Ma Lin and Wang Hao achieved. I don't think the other youth C-pen players are at Xu Fei's level yet. It is just my opinion :-D :lol:


Being able to "readily switch between TPB and RPB" is a standard skill for those who use RPB. Besides, you really don't have any idea of what "other youth C-pen players" there are out there who play in provincial teams... :lol:

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2017, 17:41 
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iskandar taib wrote:
Being able to "readily switch between TPB and RPB" is a standard skill for those who use RPB. Besides, you really don't have any idea of what "other youth C-pen players" there are out there who play in provincial teams... :lol:
Iskandar

To be honest I think they should discourage players from using TPB entirely. It's obsolete and would just add an extra unwanted option for the player to choose and potentially choke when deciding whether to go for TPB or RPB.


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2017, 04:17 
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HuLimei wrote:
iskandar taib wrote:
Being able to "readily switch between TPB and RPB" is a standard skill for those who use RPB. Besides, you really don't have any idea of what "other youth C-pen players" there are out there who play in provincial teams... :lol:
Iskandar

To be honest I think they should discourage players from using TPB entirely. It's obsolete and would just add an extra unwanted option for the player to choose and potentially choke when deciding whether to go for TPB or RPB.


Boy oh boy, I wonder where this idea came from... :lol: Take away the traditional backhand and you take away one of the biggest advantages of the penhold grip. If you can't use the traditional penhold backhand then you're left with a very inferior facsimile of the shakehands grip. The RPB was invented to cover a weakness, not to take away from the strengths. You use it to extend your reach, not weaken your middle.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2017, 05:53 
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iskandar taib wrote:
Boy oh boy, I wonder where this idea came from... :lol: Take away the traditional backhand and you take away one of the biggest advantages of the penhold grip. If you can't use the traditional penhold backhand then you're left with a very inferior facsimile of the shakehands grip. The RPB was invented to cover a weakness, not to take away from the strengths. You use it to extend your reach, not weaken your middle.

How is RPB inferior at all much less "VERY Inferior" as you say???

TPB = Block, Punch, Push and Awkward Chops
RPB = Block, Punch, Opening Loop, Loop Drive, Loop against chop, Chiquita Flick, Awkward Chop (Now I have to admit this is harder with RPB but why would a penhold chop in the first place...)

You see Ma Long here

having to rely heavily on legs to lift that chop

While Wang Hao does it effortlessly using very minimal legs; achievable using only arm and in a real game situation against the best chopper in the world nonetheless.

Very energy efficient loops.


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2017, 10:01 
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HuLimei wrote:
How is RPB inferior at all much less "VERY Inferior" as you say???

TPB = Block, Punch, Push and Awkward Chops
RPB = Block, Punch, Opening Loop, Loop Drive, Loop against chop, Chiquita Flick, Awkward Chop (Now I have to admit this is harder with RPB but why would a penhold chop in the first place...)


You've mixed up what I've been saying. I said the combination of RPB and traditional backhand is good, while RPB without the traditional backhand is a poor imitation of shakehands. Why? Because if you use RPB in the middle (in front of the body) you suddenly create a forehand/backhand transition (the "elbow") where there wasn't one before. Used only on the far backhand with the regular penhold backhand in the middle it's an asset, since it lets you cover and attack from the far backhand while covering the middle with the regular backhand. The advantage is that there is no forehand/backhand transition, and the middle is solid. Besides RPB in front of the body is awkward, you can't achieve the blade angles you need, especially near to the "elbow" and it's inferior to the shakehands backhand when used in front of the body (which you normally should cover with your traditional backhand). A "chicken wing" RPB stroke (i.e. when you're forced to play a stroke at the elbow) would be high on impossible while it's possible with shakehands and a non-issue when using the traditional penhold backhand.

Want to convince me? Then find a video of a player rated at least around 2300 who uses RPB exclusively without using the traditional backhand (with forehand, of course), who covers the middle with RPB. I don't think you'll find one because they don't exist and they don't exist because of the reasons I stated above. You'll probably find a few at the lower levels who leaned to play in the basement and continue to play that way despite the disadvantages. The Wang Hao video shows what? He's using RPB on the far backhand to loop chops, as he should be doing. What does he do in the middle? He doesn't take much in the middle because he's playing a chopper. He's got time to move to loop with one wing or the other. See what he does when he has to push, or block a fast ball, when he plays against a hitter or a looper. Here it doesn't happen much, but see 4:34. He uses the front of the bat to push, not the reverse side.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 01:41 
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iskandar taib wrote:
HuLimei wrote:
How is RPB inferior at all much less "VERY Inferior" as you say???

TPB = Block, Punch, Push and Awkward Chops
RPB = Block, Punch, Opening Loop, Loop Drive, Loop against chop, Chiquita Flick, Awkward Chop (Now I have to admit this is harder with RPB but why would a penhold chop in the first place...)


You've mixed up what I've been saying. I said the combination of RPB and traditional backhand is good, while RPB without the traditional backhand is a poor imitation of shakehands. Why? Because if you use RPB in the middle (in front of the body) you suddenly create a forehand/backhand transition (the "elbow") where there wasn't one before. Used only on the far backhand with the regular penhold backhand in the middle it's an asset, since it lets you cover and attack from the far backhand while covering the middle with the regular backhand. The advantage is that there is no forehand/backhand transition, and the middle is solid. Besides RPB in front of the body is awkward, you can't achieve the blade angles you need, especially near to the "elbow" and it's inferior to the shakehands backhand when used in front of the body (which you normally should cover with your traditional backhand). A "chicken wing" RPB stroke (i.e. when you're forced to play a stroke at the elbow) would be high on impossible while it's possible with shakehands and a non-issue when using the traditional penhold backhand.

Want to convince me? Then find a video of a player rated at least around 2300 who uses RPB exclusively without using the traditional backhand (with forehand, of course), who covers the middle with RPB. I don't think you'll find one because they don't exist and they don't exist because of the reasons I stated above. You'll probably find a few at the lower levels who leaned to play in the basement and continue to play that way despite the disadvantages. The Wang Hao video shows what? He's using RPB on the far backhand to loop chops, as he should be doing. What does he do in the middle? He doesn't take much in the middle because he's playing a chopper. He's got time to move to loop with one wing or the other. See what he does when he has to push, or block a fast ball, when he plays against a hitter or a looper. Here it doesn't happen much, but see 4:34. He uses the front of the bat to push, not the reverse side.

Iskandar


Hey RPB will create an elbow spot but I think you are mistaken at how big that spot is. It is very close to the body at the right hip. Very easily covered by simply twisting or moving right slightly.

Also I absolutely agree 200% without TPB the C-penhold player is at a heavy disadvantage!!! Just check Ma Lin's DROP shots !!! ITS ALL WITH TPB !!! It IS AMAZING !!!!

BTW I think the "new" :-D "Strawberry-flick" is a very close adaptation from the C-pen push to FH or BH :lol:

The Shakehand players can't do the Strawberry-flick to the BH side yet while C-pen will let you do it to ANYWHERE on the table :rofl:


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