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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 14:13 
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Apparently when you move the thumb up the handle it allows you to close the blade on the backhand side (i.e. the traditional backhand). Maybe if you're NOT doing this, that's why you're having trouble returning serves on the backhand? I've always thought that the ability to change racket angle in the hand was one of the advantages of the penhold grip, if you DON'T change the grip while you play then you're being too rigid. Similarly, if you can't use the traditional penhold backhand for serve return and for blocking, then you give up the other big advantage - the lack of a middle transition.

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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 17:15 
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Well, I use RPB a lot more than TPB. And moving the thumb up the handle ( its more rotating the blade by releasing the thumb ) is only for the TPB.

I'm more of a modern RPB C-pen player :lol: so I rely a lot more on my RPB for killer BH returns and heavy chops/pushes. I will use TPB for deceptive receives and blocks by "releasing" the thumb but that is waaaay too rare and unlikely :-)

Also I would like to think that on my BH, I am king :-D I really favour by RPB a LOT more than my FH. This is a HUGE mistake a lot of opponents make against me :-)

They think my BH is weak becos I am C-pen until they realise that I am damn weak on the FH side :-D Usually this is very late in the game and I tend to cover the FH with my RPB :-)

So I hope you realise that my weakness is not BH, its more to do with accuracy on my FH :-)

The only problem with the TPB is that I don't have a coach who can teach me C-pen. I am a self-taught C-pen player who "naturally" played RPB before searching on Youtube+internets for Penhold backhand :-) I was shocked to realise that I wasn't playing some unorthodox weird stroke with the C-pen :-D

Anyways I am still pretty much a beginner and I have some consistency issues on my strokes. Can't do counter-loops more than 5 - 10 loops in a row. I can push for days. I can counter-hit 20 - 50 balls in a row. I am hoping its mostly poor grip or poor movement. If I can nail these problems I think I can progress :-)


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PostPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 04:11 
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Hmmm... so if I get you right, you use the RPB exclusively rather than the traditional backhand? And you use it to push, chop and block as well as drive? Yup, that's really unusual - you don't see the top RPB players doing this, in fact the RPB seems mostly used for backhand loops and not for returning balls in front of the body. All of these players have good traditional backhands which they use for pushing and blocking in front of the body, and there's a good reason for that. If you're using RPB for strokes against balls further right than, say, your left shoulder (assuming you're a right hander), especially backspin balls, I think you're asking for trouble and this can be the cause of your "weak" forehand.

Shakehands players have this weakness called "the elbow". It's when someone hits a fast ball at your elbow - this forces you to choose between backhand and forehand, and leads to, at best, a chicken wing return, and at worst, confusion. If you're using RPB in front of the body then you have one HECK of an elbow. You're essentially chicken winging everything (because the only way you can hold the racket at the proper angle would be to stick your elbow up in the air). And you've lost the BIG ADVANTAGE of the penhold grip - the lack of a forehand/backhand transition, and therefore the lack of the "elbow". The RPB is was developed to fix a problem with the penhold grip - the cramped backhand topspin drive or loop, which limits your reach. I'm pretty sure it was never meant to cover the middle or the near backhand, the traditional backhand is for that.

So how does this make your forehand weak? It's because you're trying to cover the middle with the RPB and can't transition to the forehand quickly. It probably also affects your stance and where you stand. Note where good penhold players stand, it's well to the left, they cover most of the table with their forehands.

(Actually, I do know someone who uses his "RPB" side to return serves and pushes - but he only has wood - actually red "carbon fiber" vinyl decal - on that side, and he uses now and then it to confuse people - and boy does it work, too. I mean, you've NEVER seen spin reversal like this before... :lol: People did use to do this in the old days, before the two color rule and all those other silly new rules no one knows about.. :lol: )

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PostPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 05:36 
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iskandar taib wrote:
Note where good penhold players stand, it's well to the left, they cover most of the table with their forehands.

To be honest I think this is the reason why current penholders can't compete in top level. And by top I mean Grand Finals.
I mean that child Harimoto took a set off of Xu Xin for God's sake. That is unacceptable.
It's always ML-FZD. I think in the near future Penhold would just be treated as your preference in grip but would be taught the same way you'd teach a shakehand player.


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PostPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 08:44 
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iskandar taib wrote:
Hmmm... so if I get you right, you use the RPB exclusively rather than the traditional backhand? And you use it to push, chop and block as well as drive? Yup, that's really unusual - you don't see the top RPB players doing this, in fact the RPB seems mostly used for backhand loops and not for returning balls in front of the body. All of these players have good traditional backhands which they use for pushing and blocking in front of the body, and there's a good reason for that. If you're using RPB for strokes against balls further right than, say, your left shoulder (assuming you're a right hander), especially backspin balls, I think you're asking for trouble and this can be the cause of your "weak" forehand.

Shakehands players have this weakness called "the elbow". It's when someone hits a fast ball at your elbow - this forces you to choose between backhand and forehand, and leads to, at best, a chicken wing return, and at worst, confusion. If you're using RPB in front of the body then you have one HECK of an elbow. You're essentially chicken winging everything (because the only way you can hold the racket at the proper angle would be to stick your elbow up in the air). And you've lost the BIG ADVANTAGE of the penhold grip - the lack of a forehand/backhand transition, and therefore the lack of the "elbow". The RPB is was developed to fix a problem with the penhold grip - the cramped backhand topspin drive or loop, which limits your reach. I'm pretty sure it was never meant to cover the middle or the near backhand, the traditional backhand is for that.

So how does this make your forehand weak? It's because you're trying to cover the middle with the RPB and can't transition to the forehand quickly. It probably also affects your stance and where you stand. Note where good penhold players stand, it's well to the left, they cover most of the table with their forehands.

(Actually, I do know someone who uses his "RPB" side to return serves and pushes - but he only has wood - actually red "carbon fiber" vinyl decal - on that side, and he uses now and then it to confuse people - and boy does it work, too. I mean, you've NEVER seen spin reversal like this before... :lol: People did use to do this in the old days, before the two color rule and all those other silly new rules no one knows about.. :lol: )

Iskandar


Yep. Like I said no coach around here knows how to teach C-pen so I am stuck trying to teach myself. And yes due to exclusive RPB I do have a transition point at the elbow. But that point is in fact near my right shoulder :lol: Any return whether with side-spin, under-spin, top-spin beyond my left-shoulder gets a resounding loop-smash-drive that stays low and can land on the deep BH side of the opponent or the FH corner right on the white line corner :-D My RPB is very deceptive becos it doesn't have a giant swing or arc tell.

Like I mentioned FH is a weakness due to either poor grip or movement and also complete lack of muscle strength either biceps or triceps or forearms. Im overweight so that contributes a lot of problems as well. The chicken-wing situation is very rare due to the large coverage of my RPB and my elbow NEVER goes beyond my left-hip and never rises above my solar-plexus/sternum.

I have 100% confidence on every heavy-underspin ball to my BH. I get 70% accurate returns with RPB on heavy cut or Long-pips reversed / chopped heavy loaded under-spin balls to my BH :rofl:

I've been eager to progress but realistic about improvements without a proper coach.


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PostPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 08:52 
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HuLimei wrote:
iskandar taib wrote:
Note where good penhold players stand, it's well to the left, they cover most of the table with their forehands.

To be honest I think this is the reason why current penholders can't compete in top level. And by top I mean Grand Finals.
I mean that child Harimoto took a set off of Xu Xin for God's sake. That is unacceptable.
It's always ML-FZD. I think in the near future Penhold would just be treated as your preference in grip but would be taught the same way you'd teach a shakehand player.


I think Harimoto Tomokazu and Jun Mizutani and a lot of other players are able to take games from Xu Xin not becos Xu Xin is a bad player. But I think it might be that C-pen RPB technique of XX is not perhaps fully developed compared to say Wang Hao. So XX doesn't have the firepower on the BH side compared to a lot of Shakehand players who are upping the power to smash returns. Also Harimoto / Mizutani etc are not low-level players by a long shot. :-)

I think plastic ball is forcing a lot of players to focus less on spin and more and more on insane smashes. Xu Xin has always been a heavy spin player. I don't think he can develop anymore. He has to fight and figure out some way to survive. Possibly he will retire pretty soon since he is not adapting enough.


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PostPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 10:23 
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HuLimei wrote:
I mean that child Harimoto took a set off of Xu Xin for God's sake. That is unacceptable.


Aw come on. :lol:

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PostPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 11:40 
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man_iii wrote:
Any return whether with side-spin, under-spin, top-spin beyond my left-shoulder gets a resounding loop-smash-drive that stays low and can land on the deep BH side of the opponent or the FH corner right on the white line corner :-D My RPB is very deceptive becos it doesn't have a giant swing or arc tell.
...
I have 100% confidence on every heavy-underspin ball to my BH. I get 70% accurate returns with RPB on heavy cut or Long-pips reversed / chopped heavy loaded under-spin balls to my BH :rofl:


Interesting. What do you do if it's in front of your body? Sounds like you'd want to stand all the way to your RIGHT.. which would really mess up your forehand. I suppose unorthodox styles CAN take you far (Danny Seemiller is probably the best example of this), but you'll get up to a certain level and then it stops working. This is, of course, true for everyone regardless of style, the real question being whether the style hurts or helps. You see a large number of people playing unusual styles in clubs under about the 2000 ratings level (though Seemiller is/was over 2550 and the top player in the US for many years). I'd be interested to see how high of a level you've gotten doing this. Do you have a USATT rating?

Quote:
Like I mentioned FH is a weakness due to either poor grip or movement and also complete lack of muscle strength either biceps or triceps or forearms. Im overweight so that contributes a lot of problems as well. The chicken-wing situation is very rare due to the large coverage of my RPB and my elbow NEVER goes beyond my left-hip and never rises above my solar-plexus/sternum.


See what Brett and Nextlevel and EmRatThich have to say about using muscle strength... it's more likely the lack of power is due to poor mechanics and timing, and probably your stance and lack of use of your body.

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PostPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 02:21 
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Center of the body means I twist at the hip while keeping the elbow in line with the right shoulder, whip the arm + last-minute wrist-snap to brush upwards with maximum effect :-) Return will be deceptively slow but heavy loaded with top+side-spin. Again almost every RPB return I do stays pretty low and does not bounce up much, the ball wants to dip right into the table and further into the ground.

And I agree :up: my lack of strength on the FH could very well be poor mechanics, body position etc.

I will start a separate thread on some video advice to help fix :-) Maybe little while before I get the courage to record and upload my crappy play :lol:


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PostPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 12:55 
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Yeah, that does mean you're using the reverse side in front of your body, and it means one heck of an elbow. All your opponent has to do is aim for that elbow.

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PostPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 14:49 
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Xu xin isn't a bad player. He's #3 in the world. That's pretty good. And the 13'year old beat a lot of players. Xx is a mid court looper and has to change. In his recent matches he is developing an aggressive rpb because the running around forehand of Ma Lin and jpens isn't going to make it at the top levels anymore. We'll need xx to develop a power rpb that can compete with fzd Ma long and zhang jike backhand or our grip is lost. I blame the ball but the game may have changed anyway.

I'm a huge wang hoa and Ma Lin fan. But wh rpb would have suffered with the ball and Ma Lin really did have a consistent rpb. He used his chop tpb to win the Olympics,and rarely used the rpb in the end of his career.


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PostPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 16:56 
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Might learn something about fingers and grips from staring at this video...

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=31544&p=339711#p339711

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PostPosted: 04 Sep 2017, 22:21 
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man_iii wrote:
HuLimei wrote:
iskandar taib wrote:
Note where good penhold players stand, it's well to the left, they cover most of the table with their forehands.

To be honest I think this is the reason why current penholders can't compete in top level. And by top I mean Grand Finals.
I mean that child Harimoto took a set off of Xu Xin for God's sake. That is unacceptable.
It's always ML-FZD. I think in the near future Penhold would just be treated as your preference in grip but would be taught the same way you'd teach a shakehand player.


I think Harimoto Tomokazu and Jun Mizutani and a lot of other players are able to take games from Xu Xin not becos Xu Xin is a bad player. But I think it might be that C-pen RPB technique of XX is not perhaps fully developed compared to say Wang Hao. So XX doesn't have the firepower on the BH side compared to a lot of Shakehand players who are upping the power to smash returns. Also Harimoto / Mizutani etc are not low-level players by a long shot. :-)

I think plastic ball is forcing a lot of players to focus less on spin and more and more on insane smashes. Xu Xin has always been a heavy spin player. I don't think he can develop anymore. He has to fight and figure out some way to survive. Possibly he will retire pretty soon since he is not adapting enough.


Xu Xin's issue i feel is down to inconsistency, rather than purely technique. There are times he pulls off some absolutely amazing shots, but too often he refuses to use his RPB.


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PostPosted: 05 Sep 2017, 13:36 
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I find this somewhat amusing. You've got the World #3 being criticized for losing a very few matches against some really, really good players like Harimoto and Mizutani. I mean, he wouldn't be #3 if he didn't also WIN a lot of matches. And then we're dissecting his game, and it turns out what? The RPB seems to be this all-powerful technique that conquers all, and the reason he loses these few matches (to the World #1 and #2, mostly) was because he "often doesn't use" this all-powerful, all-conquering technique. :lol:

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PostPosted: 05 Sep 2017, 15:38 
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I wouldn't say he is "not" using the "all-powerful" RPB. But rather that the level of RPB that he DOES use is at MUCH LOWER levels ... say effectively against only between Top-50 to Top-20 players and not the Top-10 or Top-15 players.

XX uses too much FH even at his BH corner. This does mean sometimes he is out of position to counter with his FH again at the other end of the table.

Whereas other C-pen players do use the RPB but they are not as good as XX in ranking :-)

Take Wong Chun-Ting. He DOES use RPB. Imagine if XX used that RPB in his game! XX could beat Harimoto, Mizutani, FZD or maybe even ML !

And with XX level of expertise, he could easily develop the RPB to a greater level. Provided he actually wants to I guess. For now he seems content to play FH-to-FH with BH fishing.

Anyways that is my take on XX not using RPB more. There might be truly technical flaws in the RPB that really restricts Top3 levels of play. But I can't figure it out since I am NOWHERE near that universe :rofl: I am still a beginner and my FH still sucks TBH.

Its taking time to get the FH consistency higher, I am having to play a much more prolonged and slower FH. Which doesn't help with the recovery to play the next stroke.

My BH is still my "all-powerful" RPB :lol: So from my game point of view RPB a-la-Kreanga style is AMAZING! :lol: Dunno if anyone else actually uses RPB like that :rofl: I would love to see XX or WCT or Xue Fei or any C-pen player do it in matches :-D :rofl: Since that would really mean I am on the right track for RPB :-D :lol:


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