OOAK Table Tennis Forum

I notice that a LOT of C-pen players drop their shoulders vertically and keep FH bat near to their thighs and play an almost straight upward FH stroke.

How in HEAVEN does the ball fly horizontally with the low yet extremely spinny return ?? If I tried that I would end up with "Chicken"-wing syndrome.

Also I notice how Ma Lin and Xu Fei play their FH returns. It is extremely explosive. My returns are nowhere even close to their movement.

I tend to play close- and mid- table distances. I use mostly my forearm. For heavy under-spin I will crouch and use leg+hip+shoulder to brush.

Problem is that I have no formal coaching or access to a good C-pen coach. So I have a LOT of flaws.

What is the natural or "instinctive" way to develop the C-pen FH loop + loop-drive. Where do I find the extreme spinny loop and extreme explosive power ?

I have tried to watch and learn from XX but there is no way I will be able to mimic his body mechanics or grip. Ma Lin / Xu Fei / Wang Hao style play is my only option.

Lets not worry too much about how much I can move or position myself for now I know I am deadweight and too slow

Assuming I am in position to meet the ball to play a FH loop, I will be playing cross-table, ball has moderate incoming topspin,

What are the requirements and techniques to play to get the heaviest spin loop near- , mid- and far- table locations ? What are the exercises and drills I should use to maximize my ability to play the heavy spin FH loop ?

_________________
__________________________________________________________
Backup C-pen blades:

• TSP Black Balsa 7.0 :
  1. FH/BH-YRakza9/XOmegaVT
  2. FH/BH-TSP Spectol/Yinhe Qing OX
• 729 Bomb C-P : FH/BH-DHS H2 Orig/DHS H3 Orig
• TSP Versal :
  1. FH/BH-XOmegaVA/YJupiter-II
  2. FH/BH-*blank*

Fun blades:

• Yasaka Battle Balsa(ST) : FH/BH- DHS TG2Neo/Gewo HypeXT 47
• Dr. Neubauer
  High Technology
  Cypress-Carbon(ST)
  ***************************** : FH/BH-YRakza7/YRakza7

==========================================================

Use your waist? Maybe go and read the last 100 or so pages of NextLevel's "TTEdge Executing the shot" thread? It applies as well to penholders as it does to everyone else... Watch some of Brett's videos about not doing the backswing too early? Take some videos and send them to Brett?

Iskandar

Im going through those now Wish me luck! Any other suggestions ? Tips ?

Update: LTT 29 seems to be my first focus point. "Chicken"-wing situation extraordinaire

LTT 27 --> is that for that Cross-over FH ? Im good in that area as C-pen forces me to do it naturally.

NextLevel's blog thread is like 159 pages deep ! it is going to take me all year to go through them !

Hopefully my FH will improve

_________________
__________________________________________________________
Backup C-pen blades:

• TSP Black Balsa 7.0 :
  1. FH/BH-YRakza9/XOmegaVT
  2. FH/BH-TSP Spectol/Yinhe Qing OX
• 729 Bomb C-P : FH/BH-DHS H2 Orig/DHS H3 Orig
• TSP Versal :
  1. FH/BH-XOmegaVA/YJupiter-II
  2. FH/BH-*blank*

Fun blades:

• Yasaka Battle Balsa(ST) : FH/BH- DHS TG2Neo/Gewo HypeXT 47
• Dr. Neubauer
  High Technology
  Cypress-Carbon(ST)
  ***************************** : FH/BH-YRakza7/YRakza7

==========================================================

2 words: Chinese Rubber.

I give back very low arc balls, even from almost 88-90 degree strokes to underspin shots from Hurricane 2/3 (obviously will never be as spinny as Ma Lin's shots but I attribute the low arc to Chinese rubber.)

Well I am talking about normal no spin and slight top-spin balls all the way to the loop/counter-loop returns.

I am on a Chinese rubber Yasaka Shining Dragon to be precise And I do have 729-2 rubbers on a backup of a backup BB7 blade.

Im pretty sure the tack and grip on the rubbers grab the ball enough to go sky-high even from the least power top-spin loops. All I got to do is a slow flick of the wrist and it topspins with the same low arc :-/ How in the world do I swing so hard and get the same low arc ???

I will go to the club and try it out maybe with a lot more closed angle and forward jerking of the shoulder / forearm and maintain the slow wrist action.

Code:

        SWING                       BRUSH                             DIRECTION
1.   shoulder + hip                Light brush                   Up on contact
          no forearm                all the way                   Forward on follow-through
          no wrist

2.   hip + forearm               Medium brush                  Diagonal on contact
          wrist                  only on contact             Up on follow-through
          no shoulder            guide with wrist

3.   entire body                Heavy brush                    Up before contact
                               press into the ball            Diagonal contact + follow-through

I am not sure which one will be more successful. Not sure if I am missing out the obvious.

Please send help ! NextLevel's blog post is too deep
I don't think I can make it out no light at the end of the tunnel of 159 pages of posts !!!

_________________
__________________________________________________________
Backup C-pen blades:

• TSP Black Balsa 7.0 :
  1. FH/BH-YRakza9/XOmegaVT
  2. FH/BH-TSP Spectol/Yinhe Qing OX
• 729 Bomb C-P : FH/BH-DHS H2 Orig/DHS H3 Orig
• TSP Versal :
  1. FH/BH-XOmegaVA/YJupiter-II
  2. FH/BH-*blank*

Fun blades:

• Yasaka Battle Balsa(ST) : FH/BH- DHS TG2Neo/Gewo HypeXT 47
• Dr. Neubauer
  High Technology
  Cypress-Carbon(ST)
  ***************************** : FH/BH-YRakza7/YRakza7

==========================================================

An update, none of the above options worked.

Near and mid-table, the only way I could be consistent was to use Leg+Hip+Waist to put spin and power into the stroke.

Any use of wrist+forearm resulted in 1st stroke heavy with spin+speed or too much speed. And 2nd stroke always with too much speed and no control.

It didn't matter if I contacted the ball below the table or tried to play early. Any wrist+forearm meant ball went long. Almost no control on the amount of spin+speed.

The only time wrist and forearm had any effect was when actively blocking an opponents heavy loops or loop-drives.


1. Loop with legs+hips+waist whenever near or mid table distance. Faraway distance simply start closing bat angle even more and only on really dead-slow ball try to add wrist or forearm. Shoulder only for Ultimate power+smashes.

2. Blocking requires use of forearm and wrist. Need to exercise/massage the wrist and forearm constantly to keep it mobile and supple. Ending up with rock-hard wrist and forearm doesn't enhance the control needed.

_________________
__________________________________________________________
Backup C-pen blades:

• TSP Black Balsa 7.0 :
  1. FH/BH-YRakza9/XOmegaVT
  2. FH/BH-TSP Spectol/Yinhe Qing OX
• 729 Bomb C-P : FH/BH-DHS H2 Orig/DHS H3 Orig
• TSP Versal :
  1. FH/BH-XOmegaVA/YJupiter-II
  2. FH/BH-*blank*

Fun blades:

• Yasaka Battle Balsa(ST) : FH/BH- DHS TG2Neo/Gewo HypeXT 47
• Dr. Neubauer
  High Technology
  Cypress-Carbon(ST)
  ***************************** : FH/BH-YRakza7/YRakza7

==========================================================

If you record yourself side on, i'm sure you would pretty quickly figure out what you are doing wrong...

_________________
Chasse Patate

I'll do that this weekend and report back ! Should be interesting

_________________
__________________________________________________________
Backup C-pen blades:

• TSP Black Balsa 7.0 :
  1. FH/BH-YRakza9/XOmegaVT
  2. FH/BH-TSP Spectol/Yinhe Qing OX
• 729 Bomb C-P : FH/BH-DHS H2 Orig/DHS H3 Orig
• TSP Versal :
  1. FH/BH-XOmegaVA/YJupiter-II
  2. FH/BH-*blank*

Fun blades:

• Yasaka Battle Balsa(ST) : FH/BH- DHS TG2Neo/Gewo HypeXT 47
• Dr. Neubauer
  High Technology
  Cypress-Carbon(ST)
  ***************************** : FH/BH-YRakza7/YRakza7

==========================================================

I have a consistent FH for drive loops, counters, etc. and can vary power/spin (spin less so). Here's just what works for me:

I had some coaching 20 years ago for FH drives that built a good foundation.

(Then stop playing for 20 years JK .) Ahem, then I practiced FH loops against the robot. Initially I tried to get it right, power should start from the feet, then the legs, hip, waist, arm, etc. I never dipped my hand too low as I believed it's too slow in a match. (I only play close distance. I do practice mid-distance too.) I have seen Chinese videos that say do what's natural, it's not a biggie.

I wasn't able to loop very consistently against topspin first. Often it felt too fast, and I "hit" the ball in the wrong angle rather than hit+brush. It was like not powerful even if it landed.

Then I switched to practicing mainly looping backspin balls. They are slower. I was able to feel how to brush the ball, and use a bigger motion. Loop kills seemed natural. I also use hard Chinese rubbers. I was able to start looping people's underspins in a game.

Then I started looping against topspins again with robot. Now I got the hang of the right amount of hit vs brush. I loosened up my arm more and only add power when my blade is about to hit. This adds a whip-like effect. It gets more consistent. My motion is not as big as before sometimes. I tended to over-rotate my body when my motion was too big. (Filmed myself practicing).

I still look pretty uptight on video, although I don't feel that way. Using some of my waist and a relaxed arm provides enough power.

The Intensity blade I switched to also helped..it's fast with skyline 2, but very controlled.


P.S. noticed you said this "How in the world do I swing so hard and get the same low arc ??? "

Looping against underspins with teach you exactly this. You have to hit into the ball hard (in an upward way with the correct bat/ball angle) and brush at the same time. If you can clear the net then the movement works.

For me, sidestep loop kills from Ma Lin and spinny loops from XX are great examples of seeing the mechanics.

_________________
USATT 1502.
Long pips pushblocker, inverted RPB.

Blog (Ramblings of an ordinary penholder...): http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=32694

I dint do any video recordings Im too shy I guess.

Following how I have started on the path to "fix" my FH loops / power loops / loop-drives/ loop-kills.


1. I really really needed to go for a Flexi-blade! Most of the Black Balsa I was initially using were too rigid ( top-ply is a glass-fiber composite hard veneer ).

2. Medium-hard rubbers work. Super-soft rubbers work even better. What doesn't work is hard-hard rubbers like H3 ... and surprisingly contrarily H2 works :-S ... I thought H2 is harder+faster than H3.

3. Flexi-blade with hard top-ply is fine, with medium rubbers. Flexi-blade with soft top-ply and soft rubbers feels like you have immense holding power on the ball. Haven't tested this against very-far-distance counter-loops since that is not my strength.

You really need to "feel" the ball catch and stay on the rubber. In-game requires very very quick adaptation to opponent's incoming spin. Medium and soft rubbers tend to react and bottom-out on very powerful incoming spin+speed, so a more soft or nuanced counter-loop is needed. Early attacks are your advantage.

My loop arcs either high-long ... or low-long ... with very soft hands I can even loop arc high-short ... and low-short .... even over the table full horizontal swing loops are magic. Flicks require a lot of confidence but it does work and gets the job done.

A full whip action snapping the entire arm forward and diagonal-up actually works now. It works consistently across all my strokes. I can do 10 continuous loops!!!

I can do this FH power-loops with DHS PG-9 + TG2Neo + Palio Thors , as well as Yasaka Battle Balsa + YSDs, training setup was 729 Bomb + Tibhar 5Q sound + 729 OEM BlueSponge.

The real surprise was the PG9 blade which previously I had used to injure myself with TG2Neo+G888 ... and now I don't feel or get any injury related symptoms or problems! Surprise ! Surprise! My arm and body are able to handle the full weight of TG2Neo and Palio Thors on the PG9 !!!

I am well on my journey to get my killer FH loops well into gear. My BH RPB is working as well as it has for a long time.

Next set of problems to address is mostly serve-receive related, and reading service. Beyond that block defense on FH and TPB block on BH .... I don't have much hope of getting there not even in one year's time. Again coach ignores me mostly since they don't know how to coach C-pen player I wish they weren't so choosy But I can't really blame National-level coaches for ignoring me I am not going to win any matches or medals

_________________
__________________________________________________________
Backup C-pen blades:

• TSP Black Balsa 7.0 :
  1. FH/BH-YRakza9/XOmegaVT
  2. FH/BH-TSP Spectol/Yinhe Qing OX
• 729 Bomb C-P : FH/BH-DHS H2 Orig/DHS H3 Orig
• TSP Versal :
  1. FH/BH-XOmegaVA/YJupiter-II
  2. FH/BH-*blank*

Fun blades:

• Yasaka Battle Balsa(ST) : FH/BH- DHS TG2Neo/Gewo HypeXT 47
• Dr. Neubauer
  High Technology
  Cypress-Carbon(ST)
  ***************************** : FH/BH-YRakza7/YRakza7

==========================================================

Ahhh the dreaded looping under-spin returns from OX Pips-out players I had a practice ex-state player who plays modern defense. He quit and joined up somewhere else. Unfortunately looping against under-spin returns teaches about adding tons of power etc ... but it doesn't teach any control of the same said power!

But training against LPers helps a LOT to increase your stamina, endurance, rally ability, better your strategy and tactics.

I am going to find "useless" players who do a "crap" job of blocking for drills, and Im gonna loop the hell outta the ball, hopefully it will increase my movement speed and help me stabilise my extra-power strokes into a consistent rally and at least try to get my timings down for reset-recovery so I can continually loop as much as I want to.

_________________
__________________________________________________________
Backup C-pen blades:

• TSP Black Balsa 7.0 :
  1. FH/BH-YRakza9/XOmegaVT
  2. FH/BH-TSP Spectol/Yinhe Qing OX
• 729 Bomb C-P : FH/BH-DHS H2 Orig/DHS H3 Orig
• TSP Versal :
  1. FH/BH-XOmegaVA/YJupiter-II
  2. FH/BH-*blank*

Fun blades:

• Yasaka Battle Balsa(ST) : FH/BH- DHS TG2Neo/Gewo HypeXT 47
• Dr. Neubauer
  High Technology
  Cypress-Carbon(ST)
  ***************************** : FH/BH-YRakza7/YRakza7

==========================================================

Uggh! I switched to Yasaka Battle Balsa with Rakza7 And I can't believe how FAST the dang Euro rubbers are!!! I am so used to getting controlled-arcs with good amount of dip from Chinese rubbers ...

Rakza7 + Super-light + Super-Flexi balsa blade is too fast for my current level If I am 200% confident to play my FH loop strokes, then the spin and arc and dip on the ball is AMAZING

I realise that Chinese rubbers have been spoiling me with some amount of slowness Is that good or bad ? I can't feel confident now playing with the softer and faster Euro rubbers anymore

Right now,

DHS PG9 + RakzaX + Palio Thors, is working out the best. It is a BEAST.

Stag Balsa Koto + TG2Neo + 729 SuperFX, working really well on the 2-wing looper.

Yasaka Battle Balsa + Rakza7 <----- I am going to swap-out and try the 729 Bomb blade ... I am hoping the higher control on the 729 Bomb will reduce the speed and higher bounce I am getting on the YBB

TSP Versal + 729 Friendship ( OEM ), works really well as a SMASHER blade. Only problem I have is lifting heavy underspin with this as, very puzzling, why the arc is so low.

All the FH strokes are now reasonably powerful. Still need more work on getting the FH flick/flip and also transition from close to mid-table needs still a little more work. I got no problems with pushes or cuts on the FH.

_________________
__________________________________________________________
Backup C-pen blades:

• TSP Black Balsa 7.0 :
  1. FH/BH-YRakza9/XOmegaVT
  2. FH/BH-TSP Spectol/Yinhe Qing OX
• 729 Bomb C-P : FH/BH-DHS H2 Orig/DHS H3 Orig
• TSP Versal :
  1. FH/BH-XOmegaVA/YJupiter-II
  2. FH/BH-*blank*

Fun blades:

• Yasaka Battle Balsa(ST) : FH/BH- DHS TG2Neo/Gewo HypeXT 47
• Dr. Neubauer
  High Technology
  Cypress-Carbon(ST)
  ***************************** : FH/BH-YRakza7/YRakza7

==========================================================

Interesting. I always thought Rakza 7 was slow. I have a sheet, will have to give it a try. Rakza X was NOT too fast (it's gotten too grotty, time to change it out), and it's supposed to be faster than Rakza 7.

I'll betcha it's your blade.



I don't think this is even possible - it defies the laws of physics. Unless you're talking about backspin, of course. "Low throw" shots and rubbers are low spin.

Iskandar

Yeah Rakza7 is slower than RakzaX ... but RakzaX needs a stiffer blade like the PG9 I have it on right now. Also I think you are correct on the durability. RakzaX will not last as long as Rakza7 does ( I got a friend on my 3-year old Rakza7 on his BH and it still performs similar to my new Rakza7 rubber!)

I tend to have a very wristy FH loop ... So it might be that the extra snap of the wrist is giving more "oomphhfff" to the FH loops. The same action on Chinese rubbers only produces more spin ... and not much in terms of speed. I tend to side-spin loop more ... and only straight-up topspin for very heavy cut returns.

Also I noticed that I have to brush the ball a lot more gentler ... I can't really push into the ball when brushing ... Rakza7 shoots the ball too fast and too high if I get too aggressive ... not so with Chinese rubbers like 729 SuperFX or TG2Neo ...

I will test out the Rakza7 on the YBB on the slower office table. Maybe I can figure out the ideal power+spin+speed balance on the crappy office TT table.

Edit: YBB + Rakza7 on the office table ignores any low-level player spin. Magically the crappy table slows the ball down enough for the extra power in the Rakza7 lands every ball. This DEFINITELY would BLAST OFF on the club or any international TT table.

Also I hit the red rubber on the table and it is now got a gash at the top edge

_________________
__________________________________________________________
Backup C-pen blades:

• TSP Black Balsa 7.0 :
  1. FH/BH-YRakza9/XOmegaVT
  2. FH/BH-TSP Spectol/Yinhe Qing OX
• 729 Bomb C-P : FH/BH-DHS H2 Orig/DHS H3 Orig
• TSP Versal :
  1. FH/BH-XOmegaVA/YJupiter-II
  2. FH/BH-*blank*

Fun blades:

• Yasaka Battle Balsa(ST) : FH/BH- DHS TG2Neo/Gewo HypeXT 47
• Dr. Neubauer
  High Technology
  Cypress-Carbon(ST)
  ***************************** : FH/BH-YRakza7/YRakza7

==========================================================

I am STILL struggling with the Rakza7 / RakzaX rubbers on the speed side of the equation. Chinese rubbers give me what I need except the full/max speed ( at least 75% speed is achieved).

Another insight, 729 OEM and 729 SuperFX are PISS POOR against Pips-Out and Anti- when trying to loop full-reversal spins but effective for smashing. 729 rubbers will need to be boosted constantly to get their spin components high enough to play a proper Spin / Push / Cut game ... mostly push/Block/Smash is what these rubbers are good for and not much else.

Recently I got Yinhe 9000 ( clear vacuum packaging ... no insert or cardboard or sticker ) which are pretty decent at spin/counter-spin / loop under-spin full-reversals / push / cuts or chops / blocking to a degree .... but suffer from ability to smash the ball.... This will now become my new training setup....

I have a problem here. Euro rubbers are almost impossible for me to touch play Shining Dragon is the only rubber that has worked for EVERYTHING. Chinese rubbers have several weaknesses. I DONT have alternatives to Yasaka Shining Dragon .... ... I need at least an intermediate rubber .... but NOTHING I've tried so far is any good beyond certain limits.... which is also limiting my game progress ...

I need training rubbers ... so I continue to improve .... but cheaper alternative to YSD is non-existent ... I can't afford the price ... and some of the durability problem on the YSD ... similar to YRD ...

Recently MANY MANY people are telling to loop early and fast in-front of the body on top of the ball, instead of what I usually do by brushing from below the table and meeting the ball at the table surface height where the ball will be descending .... But I can't load the spin if I change that .....

How to INCREASE swing+brush on a rising ball when I am looping over the table and above the ball ??? My problem is that the ball DOESN'T stay on the rubber long enough to get brushed enough before it shoots off the rubber. Either too much speed or not enough spin ... both of these problems I avoid by doing my technique same way I have been doing it. I am decently explosive with power when I brush the descending ball .... both spin+speed tend to overwhelm the opponent ... either the 1st loop or the most definitely on the 2nd loop.

I know there is room to improve. Just not getting to the point where the 1st loop is a 200% guaranteed killer loop. Right now it is above 80% of my 1st loops can overwhelm any opponent at my level or below.

_________________
__________________________________________________________
Backup C-pen blades:

• TSP Black Balsa 7.0 :
  1. FH/BH-YRakza9/XOmegaVT
  2. FH/BH-TSP Spectol/Yinhe Qing OX
• 729 Bomb C-P : FH/BH-DHS H2 Orig/DHS H3 Orig
• TSP Versal :
  1. FH/BH-XOmegaVA/YJupiter-II
  2. FH/BH-*blank*

Fun blades:

• Yasaka Battle Balsa(ST) : FH/BH- DHS TG2Neo/Gewo HypeXT 47
• Dr. Neubauer
  High Technology
  Cypress-Carbon(ST)
  ***************************** : FH/BH-YRakza7/YRakza7

==========================================================