OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Yeah, FH is not dangerous enough. Muramatsu seem to have same kind of problem with FH.

Shionos fishing shots are not dangerous enough either, compared to Hou or Gionis.

Maybe new balls reduced backspin is hurting too, as Shionos and Muramatsus BH chopping didn't give much problems to opponents to induce easy mistakes.

Yeah, I think he's lost some forehand venom as of this year. His FH loop was quite good a year or two ago if you watch his 2014 and 2013 videos. I guess even pros suffer from the same ups and downs us mortals do.

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Blog: "Holy Chtchet!" ⇝

Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

Agreed, both Filus and Gionis have some pretty dangerious fishing or guiding shots that are quite difficult to deal with. Filus has the addition of a hella-good backhand when he twiddles.


Could this be the problem with extremely grippy pips; Curl P-4 and the even grippier Super Spin Pips Chop SP? The spin is more limited to the racket speed of the chopper and doesn't necessarily increase the spin on the topspin being given by the looper.

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Blog: "Holy Chtchet!" ⇝

Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

i think there can be few reasons
for sure one of them is plastic ball (less spin and speed)
i play with the same blade as shiono which is quite slow with T05 max
the difference in speed is big between plastic and celluloid even i have noticed it
i tested it with same players (some matches with cullu and some matches with plastic with same opponents)
with plastic i just couldnt finish any point with fh loop, all where easly blocked (with cellu ball they couldnt block, ball was too fast for them)
another thing is spin, with plastics spin is lower, easier to lift for attacker

solution for masato:
he should change to faster blade
and be more aggresive with fh

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Butterfly Defence II / Victas Curl P1V 0.5mm / Tibhar Evolution MX-P 2.0mm -185g

Joo is managing perfectly well with the new ball when playing his forehand.

It's not just the spin or speed, it's the placement - and choosing the right ball. Shiono was often out of position deep into his backhand trying to take the initiative and play a winning forehand... but either his loop was poorly placed or he chose the wrong ball to attack.

Joo's slow spinny loop against pushes doesn't often win him points outright but it gives him a pop-up to slap past his opponent.

Joo's attacking placement/timing is one of his most underrated skills, he's excellent at making it hard for his opponent to return. He either changes the pace completely and picks the "right" ball to attack, or he places the ball where his opponent struggles to return it - or both It's not just his speed/spin.

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My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

Agree with Shionos choice of when to attack with his forehand. He actually has a Nasty counter loop when his opponent are being too cautious against his chops. But I don't belive this is Shionos main problem.

First....no pro attacker has problems with backspin generated by long pips. Period. Even against Joo the good attackers rarely lose more then 2 points off his long pips unless it is a weird ball.

The big problem is the placement of his chops. They are no where near deep enough! I count 3 that land near the end line and the rest land somewhere in the mid zone. This is horrible! Gives the attacker far too much ability to choose the angle and makes their loop kick higher off the Table pushing the chopper further back. This is chopping 101....

Now THIS could be a plastic ball prob...have it slowing down to much....but he will adjust and hopefully see his game jump even more!

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

WOW alex are you still alive? hahah
Good to see you here again...

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Victas Koji Matsushita
Thibar Hybrid k1 euro max
TSP Curl p1-r 1.0

I agree a lot to many things you all said...
I don't know if it's the plastic ball or what else, but i noticed in the last 2 years Shiono's game lost quality in general. Apart from the FH attack which has always been quite unconsistent and not too powerfull (for that level), i notice the defence is always very high and sometimes short, he plays a very passive game, clearly trying to do variations that doesn't seem to have that much effect, whereas before it was a bit more usual to see him chop down the opponent to the net, or over the end of the table... He's always consistent, but he seems not to put the opponent under pressure as he did before.

But most important, i think he has a bit of a mental weakness (if you can call it this way), he loses many close matches (5th or 7th game) and in many matches you can see the difference between the "good focus periods" and the "bad ones", for example it's no coincidence this is at least the 4th time i can remember him recovering from 0-3 (matsudaira, Japan 2013 - Gao Ning, Grand Finals - Kim Min Seok, grand finals...). I guess his game is not only physically but also mentally very demanding, he needs to fight for every point, because he doesn't get many easy mistakes and doesn't take so many points right away from serves and 3rd ball attack. If he can put the opponent under pressure from the start with a good game, the guy will need to increase rithm and level and Shiono will get more mistakes, but if the opponent gets the right confidence, the match becomes long and difficult.

I'm thinking it just might be that right now this is "the usal way he is", whereas maybe 2013 was the year he could find good motivation, mental strenght and physical peak that allowed him (together with "finding the right opponents") to be a step foreward than his usual game. Moreover, at that time none outside Japan knew him, but right now he's quite famous and people understood how to face him (as most japanese players seem to be able to, since he often looses to people outside the national team when he plays "at home"), not to mention the different position he's now: that time he had nothing to lose and a great desire to succeed, now he's of course under pressure, willing to keep his good results, this is totally different...
Of course, i hope these my last thoughts are wrong and that he can get other important achievements in the future

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My Paddle
Blade: Butterfly Defence II FL
FH: Bluegrip V1 2.0 (red)
BH: Grass D.Tecs 1.5 (black)

Maybe the opponents know his game better now.

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I'M A TURK I CANNOT KEEP CALM
Butterfly Joo Saehyuk
Tsp curl p4 red 1.2
Rasant Powergrip black 2.1

On the dark side since April 2015. Rating 1500 Australia

It's not mentioned in previous posts, but is changing his equipment also not another reason he's having difficulties ATM? His intial LP, P4, was a razor for attacking players and his attacking capabilities were quite good. Then he went to Donic and it all started to fall apart.

I don't know, he switched blade and FH a long ago and he got good results right away... i dont' think at that level 2 similar pimples like those can make all that difference, and above all i think a pro wouldn't ever use something just for the sponsor's wish... i mean, he wouldnt use the racket he's using right now if he didn't think it's good for his game.

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My Paddle
Blade: Butterfly Defence II FL
FH: Bluegrip V1 2.0 (red)
BH: Grass D.Tecs 1.5 (black)

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Victas Koji Matsushita
Thibar Hybrid k1 euro max
TSP Curl p1-r 1.0

Shiono did win 2 matches and is in the main draw.
He will face Jung Youngsik From KOREA...

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Victas Koji Matsushita
Thibar Hybrid k1 euro max
TSP Curl p1-r 1.0

That will not be easy. Jung beat Joo a month ago...

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Def-attack's attempts to find balance between defence/attack | Getting better - health and game |
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and he lost 2:4 (winning 2:0)

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Butterfly Defence II / Victas Curl P1V 0.5mm / Tibhar Evolution MX-P 2.0mm -185g