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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2016, 06:56 
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In fact, I watched the video again, and he DOES twiddle right before that long loop.

Versus push, he pushed with LP, then inverted, then LP. Simovic felt the strength of the inverted push, and looped the last push based on that feedback... Problem was, the next push was with LP!

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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2016, 22:35 
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i have a friend that knows him in person...

he said he is playing with a custom slowest blade possible with hard outer plies for max spin reversal...friend tried to play with it and said that you cant miss the ball, that everything is going on the table, but cant attack with fh in no way...

so when Chtch :lol: push the ball with backside i imagine it is very very heavy underspin, and than a big contrast when he pushes with pimples, so opponents make many mistakes...

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2016, 08:02 
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111Iceman111 wrote:
i have a friend that knows him in person...

he said he is playing with a custom slowest blade possible with hard outer plies for max spin reversal...friend tried to play with it and said that you cant miss the ball, that everything is going on the table, but cant attack with fh in no way...

so when Chtch :lol: push the ball with backside i imagine it is very very heavy underspin, and than a big contrast when he pushes with pimples, so opponents make many mistakes...


Thanx for the personal information. :up:

I don't think Simovic is complaining about the contrast. Every attacking player at that level knows that pips and inverted can have this contrast. I think it's the ability to hide the spin on the ball pushing with the LP that makes Simovic nervous. He can't read it and it's not listed in the attacking manual that LPs can return backspin with backspin.
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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2016, 10:21 
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111Iceman111 wrote:
i have a friend that knows him in person...

he said he is playing with a custom slowest blade possible with hard outer plies for max spin reversal...friend tried to play with it and said that you cant miss the ball, that everything is going on the table, but cant attack with fh in no way...

so when Chtch :lol: push the ball with backside i imagine it is very very heavy underspin, and than a big contrast when he pushes with pimples, so opponents make many mistakes...

This explain why His Anna blade is double carbon. :)

I take it as,

the carbon layer is for hardening the surface, and damp (as in dampener, not as in wet) wood behind to keep anything slow.

Need to hear more explanation from Good Blade makers here. :)

Sent from my S5G using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2016, 23:44 
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Interesting analysis!

I think indeed you can (with LP) send back some backspin coming from an inverted push if you take the ball late and with much wrist use. When the opponent expects less backspin than his loop could land into or onto the net.

And the loops going long... it is clear that the opponent can't really judge what Cht is doing. I don't know if it's the twiddling that does it or the variations he makes when using LP...

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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 02:35 
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Pipsy wrote:
Interesting analysis!

I think indeed you can (with LP) send back some backspin coming from an inverted push if you take the ball late and with much wrist use. When the opponent expects less backspin than his loop could land into or onto the net.

And the loops going long... it is clear that the opponent can't really judge what Cht is doing. I don't know if it's the twiddling that does it or the variations he makes when using LP...


Yep, just like I said above, you can really fool people with this. P-1R is the only rubber that I've ever used where the inverted style push can do that and still really look like an inverted push, yet still have a lot less spin. This is why some people refer to P-1R as a "high deception" rubber even though there is minimal reversal or strangeness to it on flat Ox-style blocks. It's deception is in pushing pushes, and how you can really change the spin without changing the flight path all that drastically. There are other LPs that can do this as well obviously, but P-1R in 1.0mm is just right for this...not too slippery so that the ball cannot be manipulated, not so grippy that all pushes send back only varying degrees of underspin (like inverted).

But in the example you gave in the video, Chtchet does definitely twiddle the push prior to the loop. He had Simovic completely baffled.

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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 01:10 
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One of the beste defenders in our league is playing with Tibhar Grass on the BH and can also send underspin balls in pushing with it...he has a very loose wrist and i need to really loop the ball after he pushes my push with his lp...

so it depends of the rubber ofc, but also of the player :angel:

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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 01:15 
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111Iceman111 wrote:
One of the beste defenders in our league is playing with Tibhar Grass on the BH and can also send underspin balls in pushing with it...he has a very loose wrist and i need to really loop the ball after he pushes my push with his lp...

so it depends of the rubber ofc, but also of the player :angel:

Definitely depends on the player.

Underspin on pushes vs. PUSH? With Dtecs? Must be with Max sponge i assume given how slippery Dtecs are.

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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 01:17 
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Japsican wrote:
Pipsy wrote:
Interesting analysis!

I think indeed you can (with LP) send back some backspin coming from an inverted push if you take the ball late and with much wrist use. When the opponent expects less backspin than his loop could land into or onto the net.

And the loops going long... it is clear that the opponent can't really judge what Cht is doing. I don't know if it's the twiddling that does it or the variations he makes when using LP...


Yep, just like I said above, you can really fool people with this. P-1R is the only rubber that I've ever used where the inverted style push can do that and still really look like an inverted push, yet still have a lot less spin. This is why some people refer to P-1R as a "high deception" rubber even though there is minimal reversal or strangeness to it on flat Ox-style blocks. It's deception is in pushing pushes, and how you can really change the spin without changing the flight path all that drastically. There are other LPs that can do this as well obviously, but P-1R in 1.0mm is just right for this...not too slippery so that the ball cannot be manipulated, not so grippy that all pushes send back only varying degrees of underspin (like inverted).

But in the example you gave in the video, Chtchet does definitely twiddle the push prior to the loop. He had Simovic completely baffled.


It's not Pipsy who gave examples, I did... :D (I think you already made this mistake because we share similar avatars - between us: he's the copycat :P ).

But wouldn't it be more dangerous if you could return backspin with significant backspin using LPs? IMO that's what would make a LP very dangerous. Done with the algoritm: loop, push, reset rally. Or the algoritm "keep the spin low".

Yes, he does twiddle with the 10:06 example, but not with the 9:45 example. That's the example I find intriguing.

It's nice to speculate about this, but maybe the only thing we can conclude about this video is that Simovic is an idiot who never heard of LP? (Simovic: if you're reading this, I still like you as an attacking player ;) ).


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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 01:49 
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Lorre wrote:

It's not Pipsy who gave examples, I did... :D (I think you already made this mistake because we share similar avatars - between us: he's the copycat :P ).

Bah! Will one of you change your Avatars!? :swear: :oops: ;) :D

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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 02:27 
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Lorre wrote:
But wouldn't it be more dangerous if you could return backspin with significant backspin using LPs? IMO that's what would make a LP very dangerous. Done with the algoritm: loop, push, reset rally. Or the algoritm "keep the spin low".

Not sure I'm following there, but since you're a far better player than me perhaps you can teach me to understand those algorithms.

I think that it would make an LP dangerous to be able to push more backspin, only given that you could also send back other spins as well. And since you really can't have it both ways... if you could really give true heavy push AND give topspin with the same LP that would be a very tricky rubber. But usually having enough grip to give heavy underspin vs. push means you sacrifice the deception which creates a pop-up. For example, the push to push pop-up to set up an attack is a chopper's bread and butter versus some players even up to a very high level (see Bogeyhunter's game verus Jennifer Wu (Wu Yue). He got her to give many weaker balls due to this: he serves under, she pushes, he pushes with LPs and she gives an attackable higher push back, then boom BH loop kills it.
So, more dangerous? I dunno. I find that no matter the level, the returned push vs. LP push is at least slightly higher or a weak underspin push that is very loopable (or if high enough, smashable).

But again, you could be looking at this from your perspective of being much higher level than me, playing Modern Defense atop Mt. Olympus as it were. :lol:

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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 02:41 
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Lorre wrote:
Yes, he does twiddle with the 10:06 example, but not with the 9:45 example. That's the example I find intriguing.

Yeah, that is pretty crazy. And he wasn't even close to getting that over the net. Its probably both the grip and technique of Chtchet (medium-low underspin) and the deception/lack of LP experience of Simkovic (ie, he expects low underspin push returned with LP he should get a no-spin/mild underspin ball that he can kill).

I liken this to how people are fooled when you return topspin by doing a counter P-1R topspin stroke, and their next loop goes off the table. The opponent opens their bat expecting it to be a lot less topspin. But this is the reverse of that, using underspin.

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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 05:17 
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Japsican wrote:
111Iceman111 wrote:
One of the beste defenders in our league is playing with Tibhar Grass on the BH and can also send underspin balls in pushing with it...he has a very loose wrist and i need to really loop the ball after he pushes my push with his lp...

so it depends of the rubber ofc, but also of the player :angel:

Definitely depends on the player.

Underspin on pushes vs. PUSH? With Dtecs? Must be with Max sponge i assume given how slippery Dtecs are.


tibhar Grass...plain grass, not dtecs...
http://www.tabletennisdb.com/pips/tibhar-grass.html

he is playing with it for the past 20 years and dont wanna change :)

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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 11:27 
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Sometimes when i push a push with my p1r people net it...
Idk if its because is underspin or if is so dead that the ball just drops... :lol:

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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 21:37 
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111Iceman111 wrote:
tibhar Grass...plain grass, not dtecs...
http://www.tabletennisdb.com/pips/tibhar-grass.html

he is playing with it for the past 20 years and dont wanna change :)


Yes, I heard the ordinary Grass is a very good defensive rubber.

manofan wrote:
Sometimes when i push a push with my p1r people net it...
Idk if its because is underspin or if is so dead that the ball just drops... :lol:


And so the mystery goes on. :D Maybe we should ask it a pro if we do an interview again.


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