OOAK Table Tennis Forum

A week ago I switched FH rubber from CTT National Hero max (tensor-like, sticky, low throw, medium soft) to DHS NEO Skyline 3 max. The throw is higher with Skyline and it is not as tacky as Hero, but has a better feel to it. It is very good for looping and counter looping. Next session I filmed this game, the last one with Grass DTecS 1,6 mm for a while. The first set I played really good, attacked with confidence and at the right times. The next set started horrible, I was down 0-8. However, I managed to recover, almost the whole way. But at 8-10 I missed a serve . Next set was very even, I think it ended 10-12 with my fellow as the winner. Also, this session was the first time I used that FH serve inspired by Wang Xi. The grip is very different from what I have used before for FH serving, but it helps me being more prepared for the third ball attack - I don't have to change my grip that much after serving.



This next film is from today's session (oops, it is getting late, it is now yesterday's session) where I tried Globe Mo Wang with a very soft 0,8 mm sponge for the first time (more about this rubber here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16615). I liked it but it is very sensitive to incomming spin and a little too "untricky" for my opponrnet. But next session I will try it with a slightly thiner and more dense sponge. This will make it a little more deceptive and a little less "mushy". The Wang Xi-serve worked a little better the last set, but I still need to practise a lot more on that one, especially to make it short and spinny.

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Blade: Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk | FH: DHS NEO Skyline 3 | BH: Dawei 388D Grass20 1,0 mm
My blog: Def-attack's attempts to find balance between defence/attack

Nice videos. I really think you adjusted well from Dtecs to Mo Wang. I could not tell the difference-you had good control of both.

What was your opponent using on his backhand (red)? I thought it looked like LP, but I am not sure.

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After 9 years of LPs on BH I have gained too much weight and slowed down too much to be a chopper. I have gone to double inverted!

729 HS champ carbon Sword Maze FH/Juic Nanospin II BH (both max)
Double Fish Chen Qi carbon Sword Maze FH/Tenergy 80 BH (both max)

Thanks! He is using Yasaka Pryde on a Donic Cayman (so there is a little lp in him ).

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Blade: Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk | FH: DHS NEO Skyline 3 | BH: Dawei 388D Grass20 1,0 mm
My blog: Def-attack's attempts to find balance between defence/attack

Jocke, like always qualitative vids! Great job!

I saw you weren't at ease with the Mo Wang combo. A lot of errors you wouldn't make with your ordinary setup, especially in the beginning. It's also quite normal the Mo Wang doesn't generate as much spin as your DTecs: it's sponge is half the size of the one beneath the DTecs. It might also be your technique being optimized for a pip like the DTecs. That shows again there's no pip like DTecs at the moment. I never tried Batman Reloaded, though, which also has a built-in glue effect.

Your technique is good: nothing to say about that. Maybe a little more patience when defending. A forehand chop could help you with that. I saw you try it once and it went all the way up. Just take it lower and normally that would work out.

If you're trying to find something with more control, the only thing I can tell you is that eventually more training will give you that control. I've been looking for more control too a while ago, but it never felt as good as that DTecs.

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There's always stuff to improve!

Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk
Butterfly Tenergy 80 1.7mm
Tibhar Grass D.Tecs 1.2mm

Thanks for encouraging me Lorre! I decided to try a lp with more control ans lower speed because I make too many errors with my lp close to the table - helping my opponent to setup for a killer. And if I don't even reach the ball it doesn't matter what lp I use . Also, I rarely have enough space around the table for playing that far away as I want to with DTecS.

You spottet my misstakes and I could certinly feel them when playing. But I only care about what potential I feel with the rubber. Problem is I only practise once or twice a week, and that will not change soon. That is why I might do better with a more controllable lp. But I am not sure yet... (and my signature hasn't changed ).

Chopping with FH is the next "project"... But it is more important to focus on footwork,'FH attacks and fishing...

I'll keep you posted concerning my findings next week. Santa C. is here soon

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Blade: Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk | FH: DHS NEO Skyline 3 | BH: Dawei 388D Grass20 1,0 mm
My blog: Def-attack's attempts to find balance between defence/attack

Have you tried Dtecs in thinner sponge? How did that help in control?

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After 9 years of LPs on BH I have gained too much weight and slowed down too much to be a chopper. I have gone to double inverted!

729 HS champ carbon Sword Maze FH/Juic Nanospin II BH (both max)
Double Fish Chen Qi carbon Sword Maze FH/Tenergy 80 BH (both max)

I used it in 1,2 mm before. 1,6 mm is slightly easier overall and much easier at the table. I haven't tried it with a slow sponge.

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Blade: Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk | FH: DHS NEO Skyline 3 | BH: Dawei 388D Grass20 1,0 mm
My blog: Def-attack's attempts to find balance between defence/attack

Ok, thanx.

You probably make too many errors near the table because (1) you didn't have enough time to backup from the table yet or (2) your blade angle is incorrect when trying to attack with it. Maybe you should seek something that's +- 1mm then: the golden midway. But I think it's best to stay with a pip that has the characteristics from a DTecs: grippy sides, soft sponge (at least the feeling of a soft sponge), less grippy tops, pips spaced wide apart, very flexible pips, long pips (maximum lenght), broad pips. It might be worthwhile to use the topsheet of a DTecs and attach another sponge to it. Or something like a Phantom 0011 might be something for you. I tried it and I didn't need to change technique to chop away from the table. They are still quite fast and very backspinny. Near the table you have a lot of control, but a lack of "DTecs disruptive effect". The Phantom is more like a Dtecs away from the table, but a P1-R near the table, both with additional control. Final suggestion might be the Armstrong Twister. I didn't play it yet, but I hear some goods comments about it.

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There's always stuff to improve!

Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk
Butterfly Tenergy 80 1.7mm
Tibhar Grass D.Tecs 1.2mm

One of the most obvious problems I have with DTecS is returning serves. Fast spinny serves really dig into the sponge. Lately I have more and more treid to atack those serves (like I have seen Joo do as well). That gives returns that are difficult to read, but often slow and high as well. Most opponents at my level just smack them past me after a few attempts. If I try to push I sometimes hit the spot where my opponents can't make a full power loop and I can get in command with my back spin. But quite often I get a fast powerloop right at my body. Now, DTecS 1,6 mm is vary good at that specific passive shot from a distance, where you just hold your bat up in front of your body. But if they choose to place the loop far to the side I get into serious trouble. I remember Akkadi L1 was much bettter in this aspect.

One other thing, I was hoping that DTecS would trick my opponents more than it does. Most opponents look at my bat and see a long pimple rubber and starts to play a little cautious against it. And I am having troubles with slow returns, I can't do much if I don't activate the sponge. It still tricks some people sometimes but it also trick me. And some (other) people are having more troubles against DTecS and some more problems against a grippy and slow lp. Also, chops that returns with a lot of speed is dangerous to some opponnets, but about as many are having troubles with chops that loose speed and drops dead. But for the chopper it could be an advanage to make low speed chops, because than you have more time to move to the right position.

I am hoping to find something between DTecS and Akkadi L1. That is why I tried Mo Wang. Something with good control (but not excellent) and kind of grippy but something that also is a little disturbing when a more passive stroke is done. Akkadi L1 was very predictable, almost no spin reversal at all, and could generate lots of spin on the forst push or chop, and also return lots of back spin on a push. I hope that Mo Wang will have some of that (it surley did with the 0,8 mm sponge I tried it with).

Problem is, I don't have more than three sessions before next match in our leauge . I can't try lots of different lp's (but I do have a friend who used to play with Phantom 011, maybe I should try it...). Today I removed that ridiculously soft Avalox sponge 0,8 mm and put the Mo Wang top sheet on a more rubber-like gold coloured 0,6 mm BLütenirche sponge. It feels very promising! Also, I have a Dawei 388D on a similar sponge (but 1,0 mm). I will try these two next session (I was hoping for one session today but there wasn't enough time) on thursday. And during that session I will have to decide what to choose. One of those two, or go back to DTecS 1,6 mm.

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Blade: Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk | FH: DHS NEO Skyline 3 | BH: Dawei 388D Grass20 1,0 mm
My blog: Def-attack's attempts to find balance between defence/attack

I've found it always tricky to play with a pip in a league match I've only played a couple of times before, so make sure, if you choose one of the other ones, you immediately feel really comfortable with it.

This is what I experienced the last couple of months using my new combo: when I chose to play with the biggest sponge beneath the DTecs I knew it would be a big adjustment. I'm still adjusting, but in the last couple of months I've seen my level drop below and rise again to the same level as it was with my DTecs 1.2mm. Now I'm higher than that. Not because I play with DTecs 1.6, but because it corrects me when I do something wrong and these corrections are being implemented in my game. I makes you think a lot more.
Last couple of weeks I also hesitated about the control the DTecs gave me, so I tried to return to a 1mm pip. I had an awesome control, but it lacked the potential of the 1.6mm DTecs. So, if you still have ambition to grow in the sport, then stick to the 1.6mm DTecs and correct what's going wrong. It's not the 1.6 DTecs that will make us stagnate in level, but it's our not 100% technique that does that. Advantage of that 1.6 DTecs is that it shows us when we make a wrong move/have a wrong touch.

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There's always stuff to improve!

Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk
Butterfly Tenergy 80 1.7mm
Tibhar Grass D.Tecs 1.2mm

Well, I felt very comfy with the Mo Wang, I will keep it for a while. At least I need a few leauge matches with it. I still got some minor adjustments to do, mostly because of the change in speed at chopping. I placed a few chops to the net or too short.

Also I noticed that I don't get a lot of back spin on first chop, but on the next one, damn! Almost as good as DTecS. Mo Wang is by far the most easy lp to attack with. I hand no problems looping back a no spin serve or blocking slow loops like I had an inverted. This is very helpful for me. Another good thing is that I can generate a lot of back spin when pushing slow no spin serves. If I open my bat to the max, and let the ball dig into the pips, it is almost as grippy as an inverted. Same thing if I loop with it, I need to close my bat much more than with any other lp, and the top spin really surprised my opponent (now, this is good if I face someone that is used to lp's, otherwise it won't help me).

Still, it needs to be broken in. I think it mighy be a little softer after a few more sessions. It is still very shiny, like a brand new DTecS. This will make it a little better for me. I might even try it on my 1,0 mm BLutenkirche sponge (now I use 0,6-0,7 mm) but then some of the reversal may dissapear.



I know what you mean with this and I agree with it. But for the moment, with only one session every week, I need something more easy. I need something a little less demanding. I am willing to give up some of the easy points I got from opponents misjudging the spin, for a little more control, better placement and the ability to generate backspin on no spin balls. These 9 months with DTecS has forced me to really improve my touch, my footwork and strategic thinking. But I felt I too often needed to have a very light touch when executing a chop or a push (otherwise it would go long), and that took away lots of control of the game.

Last moths I have also played a few matches and parts of training sessions with my pure defensive setup - BTY Defence II, Dawei 388D ox, Juic 999 Defence 1,5 mm. This also made me appreciate the extra dimension of control, compared to playing with DTecS. It felt good to not have to worry about standing too close to the table when executing a chop, just to be able to land the ball on the table. My present setup is somewhere in between, I can chop closer to the table than with DTecS, but not as close as with an ox lp. But this little extra closeness will help my FH-game I think. And it will work better on the small courts our matches are normally played at.

Mo Wang is somewhere between Akkadi L1 and Grass DTecS, but a little closer to L1. There is a little spinreversal on passive strokes, but not much. The trajectory on chops is quite similar to DTecS, and this makes opponents think the ball is loaded with back spin. But as with DTecS that is not always the case. It is a little tricky to get massive back spin on first chop, but on the second one... Damn. Returning serves is much better with Mo Wang than with DTecS, at least for me. You can just hit the ball back on almost any serves... Atacking is as good as with L1, but attacks won't fool anybody unless you hit flat to get some reversal. But random atacks will keep your opponents on your toes...

Conclusion is that this is a very good lp for an allround modern defensive style with a few lp attacks. You will not get many easy points at the table by blocking (but perhaps from attacking) but you will trick your opponnet with your chopping. Highly recommended!

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Blade: Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk | FH: DHS NEO Skyline 3 | BH: Dawei 388D Grass20 1,0 mm
My blog: Def-attack's attempts to find balance between defence/attack

I really do understand you when you say you don't have to worry about being in the exact right position. That's sometimes a real burden when you're not playing that well that night. A while ago I really felt confused when looking to my DTecs: should I give it up because of the lack of control or should I keep it and let the control grow while using it? I'm only 25 years old and I want to become better. I've seen my control grow the last couple of months. It was a tough decision, but I eventually stayed with my DTecs. My third place in a local tournament Monday (and actually qua level second) only confirmed my growth. So in short: I really understand and appreciate your decision, but for myself I'm 100% convinced I can get better with it, so I stick to it.

Is that Mo Wang I you're talking about and did you ever try it with the 1.0mm sponge that comes with it?

_________________
There's always stuff to improve!

Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk
Butterfly Tenergy 80 1.7mm
Tibhar Grass D.Tecs 1.2mm

You should definitly stay with what makes it most fun for you to play with ! Everyone should do that!

Yes it is Mo Wang I. I bought it in ox and glued it myself, first to a very soft 0,8 mm sponge and then to a more dens 0,6-0,7 mm sponge. I have a spare sponge 1,0 mm (same type as the one 0,6-0,7 mm) that I might try later, but for the moment I am happy with a little more wooden feeling.

Actuallty, about getting right in position. That is my main problem for the moment regardless what rubber I use. My coach, who I played last night, is a true master when it comes to place the ball right. I am not copmaring him to the great Waldner in other aspects, but have a look at the first three balls of the second set, starting at 07:10 in the match below, and you'll understand what I mean. I have to wok my ass off against him and he keeps placing the ball so that I loose my balance or at the other side from where it looked like he would place it.
http://tv.ttc-maberzell.de/18-12-11-han ... da-1-einze

My coach is 50 years old, have been playing and coaching most of his life and has been playing like the third highest leauge in Sweden. A year ago I could beat him in three sets at training, but this season he has been training two times every week and more focused to play in our first team (where he also is a coach) and now I can't even win a set from him if he is focused (we played three last night, 11-8, 11-7, 11-3, and I filmed them but that is too embarrasing to show ). Young fast players is more difficult to him but (like Waldner) he is very good against defenders and pimples. Of course I am grateful for this, it is very good practice for me .

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Blade: Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk | FH: DHS NEO Skyline 3 | BH: Dawei 388D Grass20 1,0 mm
My blog: Def-attack's attempts to find balance between defence/attack

Can you describe how the pips look like and feel like when you brush a ball on them? Are they spaced widely apart?

Which match are referring to, because when I open the link, I only get the head page of the website?

Well, I would like to see them, because it cannot be so terrible, can it? Off course, only if you feel like it... I remember someone saying on this forum videotaping your match and looking at it can make you see some things your sensory motoric system doesn't notice.

Lorre, there are some great pics of Mo Wang in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16615

They are slightly thinner than DTecS and perhas a little more widely apart. I thing the roughness of the pips are about the same, but Mo Wang is a little more stiff. Pips are more grippy, especially if you are pressing a ball towards yhe rubber and drawing it over the bat. The more preassure, the more grip (as with DTecS). If you are curious, by one at japsko.com, costs less than 20 euro I think.

When brushing the ball it feels like you get more grip with Mo Wang, especially when I used the softer and a thicker sponge. You can use a little more opend bat. But this does not always mean you get more back spin. That also has to do with how fast the pips return to their "up right postion" and this is where DTecS is excelling. The pips are soft but they kind of snap back and makes the ball rotate enormously. If the pips would be more grippy on DTecS i am not sure they would produce more back spin, at least not for me and my chopping technique as it is today. And this is why I got a little less backspin with Mo Wang on the first chop, those pips are not optimized for my first chop in a rally.

But this autumn I have realized that enormous back spin on first chop is not the most important aspect of my game, not even the second most important.

About the link, try this one: http://tv.ttc-maberzell.de/ and then choose match named 18.12.11 Hanau vs Fulda, 1. Einzel (Steffen Mengel vs J-O Waldner).

Hmmm... I remember me saying something about studying your own playing through video, and belive me, I do. But I am not sure my coach would be all happy about me putting him on Youtube...

Now Lorre, tell me, do ypu have a mobile phone? Can you record a video with it? Most of my games are recorded with my phone and most of them in standard VGA resolution 640x480 and 30 frames per second. This is what most phones can do. I am sure you or someone close to you has a phone thsat can do that .

I have a competition comming up in a week. Only one oppurtunity to practice before that I think. I will focus on finding the right feeling when chopping, and finding the right position after my first loop (so that I can make a second one). We'll se how that works.

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Blade: Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk | FH: DHS NEO Skyline 3 | BH: Dawei 388D Grass20 1,0 mm
My blog: Def-attack's attempts to find balance between defence/attack