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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2013, 02:32 
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I haven't had good results with sponge on my backhand side because at that point, I need to play the opponent's game. Ok, but I need to be able to be able to hit it every SOMETIMES anyway. I hurt my elbow, so can't chop, chop, and chop anymore. That means I need to do more blocking and hitting, and I'm trying to take advantage of the interim period where I can't chop well, and use that time to learn to hit and block better, and then once the arm is better, I'll be able to do both.

My current setup is a custom OFF/ALL TT Piet 6 ply blade with a Cherry wood FH top ply that gives me decent pushing and chopping, as well as strong hitting due to a balsa ply underneath, and a top layer of Anegre on the BH side that works well with 0X pips for both pushing and chopping, and a thin balsa ply under it that gives my flat hits some extra zing. I use very spinny, fast, moderately tacky rubber on the FH with typically a 1.8 or 1.9 mm sponge, and lately my main setup has had Grass DTec.S 0X on the BH and lately KTL Stranger 0X, which is more tacky and spinny than the DTec.S.

What medium pips in 0X will play best to cause deception and reversal? My game seems to thrive on those two components, so I guess I should be looking in that direction, perhaps for a medium pip that is closer to the long pip end of the scale than the short pip end, since the short pips are too spinny to do any reversal, which i depend on to make many of my shots work. Basically, what likely will work best is something that is very ugly to play against, given that so many of my shots that win points by causing my opponent to make a mistake are what I'd call "abnormal", anyway.

I decided to try Friendship 563-1 and Gambler Peacekeeper medium pips, since they sounded closest to me from all I've read here, and are inexpensive to try anyway.

Any suggestions of other medium pips that are ugly to play against that I should try?

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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2013, 06:02 
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I tried the Palio WP1013 briefly with 1.5mm sponge. Didn't try it in OX, but it may be relevant to you anyway. It worked OK on soft blades, both on the slow side of my Re-Impact (fairly stiff, thick combination blade) and on a Friendship W-1 (thinner, flexible blade). A little on the fast side for me. More versatile than Friendship 563 (better for creating spin, but also more "LP-like" on flat hits) at the cost of control.
On harder blades (a couple of YinHe carbon blades, and the fast side of the Re-Impact) the control was not so good...
I tried this while I was looking for something to control the speed better, and eventually settled on LP, but I may revisit this one now that my legs are coming back in shape (so I can "run around my backhand" again).

I suspect that the 1013 will have even more LP qualities in OX, but also fairly fast, and perhaps hard to control on a hard blade. Price is low, and other reports indicate that durability is quite good.

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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2013, 07:27 
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I looked into the Palio, but the people I found that tried it didn't think it was a problem to play against, so I'll hold off on trying it for now, but given its inexpensive, its worth a try if the others don't work.

I have the feeling, after playing with some rubbers on backhand with different sponges, that I am having trouble analyzing the options because most people play with sponge, and/or a softer blade so the rubber doesn't act the same as it does on a harder, faster 0X setup, and a lot of what gets lost with the sponge is the deception and reversal, so the only way I have a chance at finding something better than what I've go is to literally try different 0X sheets vs the robot with different speeds and spins to see what works or is close to working with the strokes I'm used to, and then to go try playing with those and see if I can adapt to them, and whether they help or hurt my game. Oddly, sponge seems to ruin my attack ability because I'm using the wood itself to get the speed on the ball.

Also, I need to be attacking, pushing and blocking more, and chopping less, given the elbow troubles. I was thinking about it last night, watching vid of a woman named Tawny Banh, who was attacking with medium pips on her backhand, and I came to the conclusion that I should work on better serves, and will need to stay up closer, hit quicker, and locate the shots better, if I'm going to do less chopping and still win points.

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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2013, 10:17 
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You'll surely need to develop new strokes.

For me, MP's are much harder to use than LP's as they require a more active and more precise stroke than LP's, leaving little margin for error for the unskilled. MP's that are more LP-like include Meteor 71-2 and 755-2 but neither are particularly noteworthy or troublesome to opponents, and 71-2 sheds pips all too easily. I think your best bet might be to develop a BH offense around speedy knuckleballs, as well-delivered by spin-insensitive pips like Prasidha Long A and DHS Phantom 0011 Infinity, both on max sponge. I'll bet Tatlwai still has some unopened Long A for sale.

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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2013, 11:27 
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I have had no good luck with anything but very thin sponge on my backhand.

Yes, I know I'll need to be playing more active strokes. I do that anyway with the long pips, so I'll just need to do it more, and I'm hoping that will work. I'm expecting the medium pips to be more spinny than the long pips, with less reversal, but hoping they will be better at attacking underspin and nospin balls, as well as countering vs topspin. I need at least SOME reversal for the game I play to work (I expect I'll need to be doing more of a chop block than just block to get good backspin), so I can't play with sponge or softer wood. The knuckle balls only work up to a certain level, and above that, I need to be altering their spins creatively to keep them guessing and into the net or off the back when they try to attack, and then they get afraid to hit, and at that point, they are playing my game...

I tried some 755-2 today, but it had a thin sponge, so it didn't work well pushing and blocking or smacking. I just wasn't getting enough reversal or a hard enough hit due to the sponge. I tried to remove the sponge, but it would take hours of effort, so I ordered an 0X sheet to try.

I also tried some Neptune long pips today and it did well enough that I will try playing with them. It worked to do an active block shot I haven't been able to do with the DTec.S or KTL Stranger.

I also tried some Butterfly Challenger Attack on a thin Air Zero sponge today, but it STILL doesn't chop well enough, and has no spin reversal when I block, so would need to chop block somehow. Its just too spinny, so I'll take it off.

I ordered a bunch of cheap pips to try as follows:

RITC 563-1 (I'm thinking this one was probably a mistake at this point, but for $4, its worth 15 min on the robot to try it)
RITC 755-2
DHS 874 (same topsheet as Dr Neubauser Diamant, I heard)
DHS Sharping (same topsheet as Nittaku Senrei, I heard)
Galaxy MILKY WAY 955
Kokutaku 110 (I noticed a lot of German pips players use this or the Diamant)
Gambler Peacekeeper (Heard of quality problems with losing pips after I ordered it. Hope they are fixed by now))

Anyway, it will be a while for them to arrive and for me to test them.......

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--- Push/Chop or Attack ---
USATT xxxx Lost it all by playing before recovered.
Blade: TTPiet OFF-/ALL custom
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BH: Tibhar Grass DTecs 0X Long Pips


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2013, 11:40 
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What about curl p3. I tried that on a friends blade. Doesn't chop as good as p1r but hits are very easy and it blocks well.

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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2013, 12:39 
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From what I've seen on the web the TSP Curl P3 sounds like a possible fit. The only negative on it was chopping from deep, but I need to be doing less of that, and can learn to chop with it as much as I need to, I would guess. My backhand chop WAS my best shot before the elbow troubles, but I need to find different solutions, now.

Its expensive, though, so I'll try to find a used sheet or one I can borrow to try. It will be quite a while before I can play another tournament, anyway.

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--- Push/Chop or Attack ---
USATT xxxx Lost it all by playing before recovered.
Blade: TTPiet OFF-/ALL custom
FH: Tibhar Evolution MXP Max
BH: Tibhar Grass DTecs 0X Long Pips


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PostPosted: 02 May 2013, 07:51 
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Well, no luck on finding any TSP Curl P3 0X or Nittaku Pimplemini One used to try. I found a Pimplemini with sponge, but it can take minutes or hours to get sponge off, and sometimes you destroy the rubber trying has been my experience. I just can't afford to keep buying $30 to $50 rubbers just to see if they might work. At $5 to $10, its worth the risk, but at $30+ its a long shot if you are hoping for a winner.

I got the Gambler Peacekeeper today and mounted it on a blade. The pips are quite short and much stiffer than most of what I have. The sheet itself is thick, though, and the rubber is more spinny than Neptune and a similar amout of spin compared to the KTL Stranger, just based on bouncing and rubbing the ball. Hopefully my elbow will feel up to 10 or 15 min of hitting, soon, to do a session with the robot.

The rest of the test rubbers are coming from China, so will likely take weeks to get here. I guess that will give me some time to try what I have.

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--- Push/Chop or Attack ---
USATT xxxx Lost it all by playing before recovered.
Blade: TTPiet OFF-/ALL custom
FH: Tibhar Evolution MXP Max
BH: Tibhar Grass DTecs 0X Long Pips


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PostPosted: 02 May 2013, 13:05 
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Old-Man-Southpaw wrote:
Well, no luck on finding any TSP Curl P3 0X or Nittaku Pimplemini One used to try. I found a Pimplemini with sponge, but it can take minutes or hours to get sponge off, and sometimes you destroy the rubber trying has been my experience. I just can't afford to keep buying $30 to $50 rubbers just to see if they might work. At $5 to $10, its worth the risk, but at $30+ its a long shot if you are hoping for a winner.

I got the Gambler Peacekeeper today and mounted it on a blade. The pips are quite short and much stiffer than most of what I have. The sheet itself is thick, though, and the rubber is more spinny than Neptune and a similar amout of spin compared to the KTL Stranger, just based on bouncing and rubbing the ball. Hopefully my elbow will feel up to 10 or 15 min of hitting, soon, to do a session with the robot.

The rest of the test rubbers are coming from China, so will likely take weeks to get here. I guess that will give me some time to try what I have.


Most medium pips are terrible in ox for chopping or blocking against strong loops. I've tried them all, more or less, over the years. Of all the medium pips, Pimplemini One and Millitall II are the most "okay" in ox, as the pips are very small and bend a bit, similar to some hard long pips in feel. Curl P2 is okay too. However, if you want to chop or block in ox, the closest rubber to medium pips is the regular Feint Ox, which is a "short" long pips but head-and-shoulders above any medium pips without sponge.


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PostPosted: 02 May 2013, 14:32 
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Thanks. I appreciate those lessons from your experiences with the different rubbers. I could tell that the short ones were not going to work the way I play, and that I need to step up my blocking and attacking to return balls I used to chop, so it makes sense that something between the medium and long is likely what I need.

Yes, when I'm up against a looper, I usually end up trying to chop them into the net with my backhand. LOL, at least that's what I've been doing. For now, I'm trying to learn to block and maybe chop/block more, because I'm not sure if I can do the deep chop like that anymore, with the elbow troubles, but I know it will be best if I still have rubber capable of handling it, if I can get back to being able to do it.

I found a friend with a sheet of Feint 0X he's not using that wants a couple other pips sheets I have, so hopefully I'll be able to borrow it. I may end up having to test the rubbers for chopping ability with my forehand because chopping on backhand hurts, but at least that way I'll know what to expect.

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--- Push/Chop or Attack ---
USATT xxxx Lost it all by playing before recovered.
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BH: Tibhar Grass DTecs 0X Long Pips


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PostPosted: 02 May 2013, 19:47 
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meteor 575 ox...maybe


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PostPosted: 06 May 2013, 05:33 
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Try Yasaka A-1-2,it's an ox short-med pips that is very thick despite no sponge.

It's lasts forever,has a grippy,clothy feel but still produces flat sliding attacking shots.

I used it on my b/h for 6 months 15 years ago and my b/h flat loop was difficult for opponents to return due to the flatness of the shot.

I gave it to a Chinese friend who after a few months practicing with it developed his best attacking b/h ever. It does require perseverance and a very fast blade.

http://www.tabletennisdb.com/pips/yasaka-a1-2.html

Hallmark Frustration 1.5mm LP would be my second choice.


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PostPosted: 13 May 2013, 04:47 
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Old-Man-Southpaw wrote:
I haven't had good results with sponge on my backhand side because at that point, I need to play the opponent's game. Ok, but I need to be able to be able to hit it every SOMETIMES anyway. I hurt my elbow, so can't chop, chop, and chop anymore. That means I need to do more blocking and hitting, and I'm trying to take advantage of the interim period where I can't chop well, and use that time to learn to hit and block better, and then once the arm is better, I'll be able to do both.

My current setup is a custom OFF/ALL TT Piet 6 ply blade with a Cherry wood FH top ply that gives me decent pushing and chopping, as well as strong hitting due to a balsa ply underneath, and a top layer of Anegre on the BH side that works well with 0X pips for both pushing and chopping, and a thin balsa ply under it that gives my flat hits some extra zing. I use very spinny, fast, moderately tacky rubber on the FH with typically a 1.8 or 1.9 mm sponge, and lately my main setup has had Grass DTec.S 0X on the BH and lately KTL Stranger 0X, which is more tacky and spinny than the DTec.S.

What medium pips in 0X will play best to cause deception and reversal? My game seems to thrive on those two components, so I guess I should be looking in that direction, perhaps for a medium pip that is closer to the long pip end of the scale than the short pip end, since the short pips are too spinny to do any reversal, which i depend on to make many of my shots work. Basically, what likely will work best is something that is very ugly to play against, given that so many of my shots that win points by causing my opponent to make a mistake are what I'd call "abnormal", anyway.

I decided to try Friendship 563-1 and Gambler Peacekeeper medium pips, since they sounded closest to me from all I've read here, and are inexpensive to try anyway. Any suggestions of other medium pips that are ugly to play against that I should try?


I have played/chopped a lot with medium pips 1.0 in the past. I have a sheet of 563-1 2.0. I was able to make the adjustment for chopping with consistency and the 2.0 blocks better and hits good with control. My best shot is a chop block below the table 4-10' back of the table.

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Hunter Flame / Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 both sides .. Play Right-handed
Gambler Double Carbon / 4H DHS H8 39 degrees Max / BH Kokutaku 911 Long Pips OX / Play Left-handed
729 Wood / 4H Bty Ten 64 max / BH GD CC LP OX .. Play Left-handed
Hunter Fire / 4H Xiom Omega IV Elite Max / BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 .. Play Right-handed
Cpen SOS Wood / 4H 729 802-40 2.0 / BH GD Talon LP OX .. Play Left-handed Shakehand
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PostPosted: 16 May 2013, 02:27 
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All the test rubbers and sponges arrived, and I'm going through them one at a time, basically eliminating anything that I don't find at least some advantages with. They are all pips, some short, some medium, some long, all 0X, except the ones I couldn't get that way, and those I'll remove the sponges from because they are thick. I do have thin soft sponges I can try, .5, .8. 1.0, 1.2 and 1.5, which the faster ones will need to be able to chop against hard, fast loops.

What I'm trying to do is get to where I can still serve/return serve, block, push and chop well, and add better ability to counterhit as well as get to where I can flat smash from my backhand side. The last two I haven't been able to do well with the DTec.S 0X because I can't seem to control the ball well enough to keep it on the table, and as a result, I'm too tentative with the shots when I do try them, so even if they do land, they aren't always winners. And I'm hoping I can get to where I can learn to give the ball a little flick of reversal when i need to, if the rubber won't do it for me.

I did some testing the past few days, and have eliminated a couple rubbers. I tried the DHS Sharping with a thin soft sponge, and also the DHS 874 with a thin soft sponge. I was able to play reasonably well with both, but was doing better with the DHS 874, as I seemed to be able to almost just play with it, possibly because maybe it was playing a lot like the short pips I used when I was a little kid. The throw angle just seemed to need less adjusting to. I was able to hit with both, and the counterhits I was sending were quite ugly especially if I was able to play up close and hit quickly off the bounce. A problem I had with both was that I needed to really chop well to get good backspin. Normally that would be ok, but with the messed up tendon and elbow, it was just asking too much. I think I need at least some spin reversal to survive in my current partially crippled state.

Therefore I will concentrate testing efforts on rubbers that have plenty of reversal. Giant Dragon Talon Special (long pip) is the current leader.

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--- Push/Chop or Attack ---
USATT xxxx Lost it all by playing before recovered.
Blade: TTPiet OFF-/ALL custom
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BH: Tibhar Grass DTecs 0X Long Pips


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