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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2018, 09:42 
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Location: Palm Desert California
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Blade: Stiga All-Around WRB CR
FH: Nittaku Moristo DF 1.3mm
BH: Milky Way 955 .7mm
Hey everyone, been a past member, haven't posted in several years, wasn't sure whether to put this in the long or medium pip section. After playing an attacking long pip style with thicker sponge (usually about 1.3mm) I made the switch to Dr. Neubauer Aggressor, playing with both 1.3mm and 1.5mm. I loved the way it played but it seemed it was as difficult for me to keep it on the table as it was for my opponent to return it if my shot landed, not odds I'd be willing to bet on. So after 6 months of playing with the Aggressor, I switched to the KO rubber, it seemed to have much better feel to me, and I was just destroying the regulars mates I play at the Palm Desert table tennis club. I recently played KO in a tournament and missed into the net way too often, I started scratching my head, losing more hair. I certainly don't want to go through the paddle palace catalogue and try every new (and old) long pip on the market again. Then I remembered that Double Happiness made a very thick long pip called C8, and in the past I absolutely hated it because they were too fast for me at the time. Since playing with the medium pips for over a year, and then switching to C8, now it seems slow with great control. I haven't played what I consider a consistent topspin attacker yet so I have yet to see how the chop block and loop pip flat kill works, hoping I'll find out tonight. One thing I have discovered about the C8 pips, they react more to sidespin than they react to topspin or chop, the fiction level seems different depending on how the ball is spinning. I'm interested in comments and other member's views, good to be back.


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2018, 18:21 
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Joined: 20 Dec 2018, 09:12
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Location: Palm Desert California
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Blade: Stiga All-Around WRB CR
FH: Nittaku Moristo DF 1.3mm
BH: Milky Way 955 .7mm
Ok, got some answers (for my game) about the C8 vs. Dr. Neubauer rubbers Aggressor and KO, got to play against a couple of high 1800 players out here in the California desert and was able to defeat both, a right handed heavy, high arc spin looper 3-0 and a lefty power sidespin topspin and snapping flat backhand attacker 3-1. The C8 is definitely slower with more spin reversal (but less "dead" effect) but also a higher friction level as the balls on chop blocks popped up much higher and deeper although this may be due to lack of practice and technique.

I have read most of the posts out here about the Neubauer pips (Aggressor and KO), but sometimes start skimming going into drone mode so forgive me if my next thought has already been discussed: the pimple geometry of the Dr. N pips. When first reading the description of the half-long pips, "all new pimple geometry" I thought it was a BS marketing ploy, but having watched the many equipment reviews I believe the pips have less dense pip tops, like the top 1/3 or 1/4 of the pip doesn't seem as dense as the base which would explain why passive shot "slow down" not bending into the hard bottom portion of the pips. This assumption of the pips being less dense all the way through the cylinder of the pips is from watching the demo videos where they kind of bend the sheet of rubber under bright light, it's either the dye not taking or less density at the peak of the pips.

I should also mention a little about my posting name, I flip my bat all the time, even in an add-out of a close match situation, so I have to be able to effectively use the pips on both forehand and backhand instead of the common misconception of covering a weak backhand with long pips, both my sides are weak :D Also I am a inverted looper, allaround player, playing with thin sponge and a slow blade for ultimate control trying to master every shot in the game, I'll throw an unexpected inverted chop during a topspin rally just to confuse an opponent.

With the C8, chopping off the table against topspin is very good and other Neubauer type strokes lifting, slide blocking, drop shots, blocks, attacking chop balls and flat hitting floaters work well. Not able to hit through very spinney loops yet but that is a difficult stroke with any medium or long pip due to the spin reversal and the ball floating off the end of the table, and/or my own incompetence. Very happy so far with the C8 1.0mm but like most of us still looking for more of an edge so will be trying the C8 ox next week, although in the past I tend to dislike ox long pips mostly due to the difficulty of successfully glueing it to the blade without screwing it up. Cheers, bud for all!


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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2019, 00:40 
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Darth Pips
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Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have recently decided to try switching from long pips no sponge to medium pips and have been trying a few different types of medium pips with sponge. The Dr Neubauer Aggressor is one of them I tried, and it didn't suit my game. Felt VERY heavy, not enough control, and more difficult to attack with. Felt like it had much less grip than most other pips, and I always preferred grippy long pips, so it just didn't align with my style. I've also tried Friendship 755-2 Mystery with a very thin sponge (0.5) which I thought was ok, and Spinlord Keiler 1.3 mm sponge, which I have been liking so far. I'm in full EJ mode, so I am trying a lot of different combinations. I took the Aggressor off my blade and just put on KO Pro in 1.3, I should get a chance to try it this weekend. Definitely looks different than the Aggressor, and is lighter weight.

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Blade: Donic Defplay Senso, Testing out many new inverted rubbers on FH and medium pips on BH


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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2019, 03:54 
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dwruck wrote:
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have recently decided to try switching from long pips no sponge to medium pips and have been trying a few different types of medium pips with sponge. The Dr Neubauer Aggressor is one of them I tried, and it didn't suit my game. Felt VERY heavy, not enough control, and more difficult to attack with. Felt like it had much less grip than most other pips, and I always preferred grippy long pips, so it just didn't align with my style. I've also tried Friendship 755-2 Mystery with a very thin sponge (0.5) which I thought was ok, and Spinlord Keiler 1.3 mm sponge, which I have been liking so far. I'm in full EJ mode, so I am trying a lot of different combinations. I took the Aggressor off my blade and just put on KO Pro in 1.3, I should get a chance to try it this weekend. Definitely looks different than the Aggressor, and is lighter weight.


I heard some rumours about a thin slow sponge for Aggressor. Might have been Nathanso who had that version. I don’t know if/when it will be available.
Edit: look at 2018-09-17 in the Aggressor thread.

You may want to try DMS Power Pipes, more controlled but also good effect. And fast.

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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2019, 04:21 
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dwruck wrote:
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have recently decided to try switching from long pips no sponge to medium pips and have been trying a few different types of medium pips with sponge. The Dr Neubauer Aggressor is one of them I tried, and it didn't suit my game. Felt VERY heavy, not enough control, and more difficult to attack with. Felt like it had much less grip than most other pips, and I always preferred grippy long pips, so it just didn't align with my style. I've also tried Friendship 755-2 Mystery with a very thin sponge (0.5) which I thought was ok, and Spinlord Keiler 1.3 mm sponge, which I have been liking so far. I'm in full EJ mode, so I am trying a lot of different combinations. I took the Aggressor off my blade and just put on KO Pro in 1.3, I should get a chance to try it this weekend. Definitely looks different than the Aggressor, and is lighter weight.


Look forward to your feedback on KO Pro 1.3mm as I also couldn't get on with Aggressor. Going to try the new Spinlord Orkan in 1.5mm this weekend as I am looking for more defensive capability than Keiler offers.


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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2019, 04:31 
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Joined: 13 Nov 2018, 03:27
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Blade: Dr N Magical Touch
FH: Yinhe Apollo 5
BH: Spinlord Waran 1.8 mm
ChasFox wrote:
Look forward to your feedback on KO Pro 1.3mm as I also couldn't get on with Aggressor. Going to try the new Spinlord Orkan in 1.5mm this weekend as I am looking for more defensive capability than Keiler offers.

Please don't forget to post your impression of Orkan on the forum!


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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2019, 18:21 
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Joined: 20 Dec 2018, 09:12
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Location: Palm Desert California
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Blade: Stiga All-Around WRB CR
FH: Nittaku Moristo DF 1.3mm
BH: Milky Way 955 .7mm
One thing a really missed playing with Dr. N. medium pips, both Aggressor and KO, was the slide block, bending the longer pips (C8) to the side, against service return and especially against loops as a tricky variation. I've always been a firm believer if you bend pips several different ways with several different strokes you can change the amount of spin reversal or take the spin off the ball, it also tends to drive my opponents mad!


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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2019, 22:14 
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Blade: dr neubauer firewall +
FH: DHS skyline 3 neo 2.15 mm
BH: Dr. Neubauer Agressor 1.5
Please anyone who tried medium pips please go to the medium pips list caracteristic and rate the rubber you played with. There is a chart ( excell) of all mps with the different rating so you can compare them. The chart will be update next week. Thank you


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2019, 09:45 
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C 8 is long pips.

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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2019, 23:17 
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Blade: Donic Defplay
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BH: Testing Medium Pipx
Got to play a lot over the weekend. Had two full sessions with the K.O. Pro (1.3 mm) and a couple of matches with Keiler (1.3 mm). I'll give my impressions of these, also compared to Aggressor (1.3 mm), on my Donic Defplay Senso blade.

Speed
K.O. Pro was very similar to Aggressor in terms of speed. I'd consider both to be pretty fast, but remember I'm coming from many years of playing OX long pips as a reference. Keiler was noticeably slower than either of them.

Throw angle
Again, I'd say K.O. Pro was similar to Aggressor in that it has a pretty low throw angle, which can be very tough for opponents to deal with. Keiler had what I'd consider a medium angle.

Defensive properties
Here's where K.O. Pro really shines. While I found Aggressor nasty for my opponents, I didn't feel like I could generate my own spin or add much spin. I felt like K.O. Pro had a little more grip than Aggressor, and when used properly, has a lot of great potential for defense. When used properly, I felt like I was using a traditional grippy long pip. Regular blocks went back fast and low, but I could also add significant spin reversal against top spin, giving a heavy back spin, on chop blocks. Away from the table, chopping was even pretty good, and people would dump balls into the net because of the spin. Keiler is completely different, defensively I was able to get points from being able to take the pace off the ball a lot more and having really accurate placement. When opponents missed, it was because of the placement, short balls, and off speed characteristics, as opposed to the reversal and speed of K.O. Pro.

Serve Return
I found the Keiler to be much easier to handle for serve return. Much better in the short game (was able to drop balls short rather than having them jump a bit with the K.O. Pro) and easier to attack any spin. Also seemed much less affected by my opponents' spin.

Attacking
As you'd expect, Keiler was easier to attack with due to the higher throw and lower speed. I used punch blocks and hits to set up loops with my forehand, or try to win points off placement into the body and wide to the backhand. K.O. Pro had a pretty devastating punch block and I won points off of the speed and flatness of the balls. Also, when hitting, it was so low and fast that when placed well, the balls were almost un-returnable.

Weight
Like the Aggressor, the K.O. Pro is a heavy rubber. Maybe slightly lighter, but still what I consider heavy. Keiler is significantly lighter.

Final Thoughts
For an experienced user of medium or short pips, I think K.O. Pro is a great option. You can generate defensive shots with variation and either dead balls or good back spin against top spin, like a long pip. But, on offense, you can hit and punch block with speed like a short pip. It's something that, I feel, with more experience I'd like to come back to in the future. Right now, Keiler is a lot better for me. Coming from many years of OX long pips, I do not have the skill to control K.O. Pro. With Keiler, I had a significantly higher level of consistency in blocks and shot placement. I think my plan moving forward will be to work with the Keiler, feel like I gain experience and some sort of mastery with that, then revisit the K.O. Pro.

I was just wondering, if I got a thicker sponge on the Keiler, would I still have the control I need right now, but with a little more speed for my attacks? Or would I be losing a lot of control?

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USATT Rating: 1764
Blade: Donic Defplay Senso, Testing out many new inverted rubbers on FH and medium pips on BH


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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2019, 23:40 
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Great feedback on your first trials with KO pro and Keiler. You thoughts on Keiler mirror mine, good for blocking short or deep and well placed attacks but difficult to chop/chop block with.

Was your Keiler 1.2mm or 1.5mm as they play quite different and was the sponge a yellow orange colour or the latest dark orange?

Keiler like many thin sponge pips out rubbers is very sensitive in how it plays to the blade used, so on a stiffer faster blade than your defplay it would play faster and more direct but not so easy to take the pace off the ball.

I am currently trying out Orkan 1.5mm as an alternative to Keiler and my first impressions are it is probably like a slower KO pro. Also tempted to try Gipfelsturm 1.2mm unless Orkan meets my needs.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 01:13 
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My Keiler was the 1.2 mm. I will have to double check the sponge but I think it was a dark orange if I'm remembering correctly. I will update if I am wrong. I seem to really like the Spinlord rubbers (had been using Dornenglanz 2 OX before switching to MP) so I am very interested to hear your impressions of their other medium pips. You are certainly right about the ability to chop block and chop with Keiler. I found it to just float too hit when I tried, although some of that might be my technique. Players did miss some of those shots, hitting them long off the end of the table because they were expecting more spin to be on the ball. I'm a bit interested by the sound of a "slower K.O", Orkan, but I wonder if it being slower takes away some of the advantages that K.O. has. It's my instinct that the Keiler will be fine against lower and mid level players, but higher level players will be able to adjust easily to the slower pace, maybe I'm wrong. For reference, my testing was mostly against USA Table Tennis rating level 1600-2000. I'm at 1766 right now, so right in that range where I think Keiler works well. I had a couple of upper 1900/mid 2000 level guys tell me that they thought I was tougher to play (already) with the medium pips, which was really good to hear.

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Blade: Donic Defplay Senso, Testing out many new inverted rubbers on FH and medium pips on BH


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 01:59 
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Blade: dr neubauer firewall +
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if you played with MPs please rate it on the New mps caracteristics forum so we can really start to have the comparaison between each MPs. More we get more precise is the chart summary. thank you.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 02:45 
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Added mine! :-)

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"The greatest teacher, failure is."
USATT Rating: 1764
Blade: Donic Defplay Senso, Testing out many new inverted rubbers on FH and medium pips on BH


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 03:00 
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Where I find MP's like Keiler and Orkan really shine is playing against pushers and choppers as it is really easy to attack backspin with a lifting motion. makes long pips/anti a lot less dangerous as you are giving them pace but little spin whilst easily dealing with any spin they can create. Keiler can aggressively counter hit topspin but Orkan is less so.


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