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PostPosted: 21 May 2017, 06:03 
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garbol wrote:
composite is not needed to increase speed. there are fast blades without any composite. eg. stiga clipper.
so u can see u can get enough power/speed from all wood blade.
im a chopper but if i was playing 2 inverted korbel would be just fine.


Clippers are sometimes fast, and I mentioned another all-wood blade, the Masunov as another example of a fast all-wood. However, the whole point of my post is that increased speed is not the only reason some people like composite materials in blades, and moreover that some composite blades are not particularly fast! For example, a Timo Boll Spark is slower than a Korbel. At higher levels of the game, in 2017, the majority of offensive players are using composite blades, and most typically with carbon in the weave. Clearly a lot of people like what it provides.

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Last edited by Baal on 21 May 2017, 08:14, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 21 May 2017, 06:14 
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darucla wrote:
Have they made some errors in those linked pages; i.e. the polymerdatabase on Arylate, which refers to Kuraray as the major manufacturer of (Vectran) Aramid?


It is a bit confusing. Vectran is not an aramid (and there are many different kinds of aramid fibers). I have read that one of the differences between Vectran and various aramid fibers is the way they with changes in temperature, which doesn't matter in a table tennis blade. Mechanically they share a number of properties in common.

By the way, here is another company that specializes in weaving different kinds of composite fibers into fabrics. They can do it with Vectran, or Kevlar or others, although it doesn't look like they make carbon-Vectran weaves. The point is, it is not hard for blade makers to get this stuff and also since there are so many possible variations we can expect in the future to see many more types of composite materials in blades.

http://www.warwickmills.com/Fiber-Compo ... Goods.aspx

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PostPosted: 21 May 2017, 07:00 
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Blade: Hurricane Long 3
FH: DHS Hurricane 8
BH: Tibhar MX-P
I looked a little further. Aramid is a word derived from Aromatic Polyamide, which describes what it is made of. Arylate is derived from the action of aryl-ating (ie introducing aryl groups into) a compound, which describes how it is made. They are both plastics, but
Quote:
Aramid, in full aromatic polyamide, any of a series of synthetic polymers (substances made of long chainlike multiple-unit molecules) in which repeating units containing large phenyl rings are linked together by amide groups. Amide groups (CO-NH) form strong bonds that are resistant to solvents and heat. Phenyl rings (or aromatic rings) are bulky six-sided groups of carbon and hydrogen atoms that prevent polymer chains from rotating and twisting around their chemical bonds.
as opposed to
Quote:
Polyarylates are a type of aromatic polyester. As in other polyesters, the multiple repeating units that make up the long, chainlike polyarylate molecules are linked together by ester groups (chemical formula CO-O). However, the presence of aromatic rings (bulky, hexagonal groups of carbon and hydrogen atoms) in the repeating units greatly stiffens the polymer chain by interfering with the rotation of the repeating units around the ester linkages.
Quotes from https://www.britannica.com, accessed 20th May 2017. (My italics).

So, it appears the "glue" which holds the "repeating units" together is a major difference; the aromatic rings are in common and perform the same function in both but I cannot decipher enough science-ese to tell if the base units (amide v ester) are similar. But, certainly, different products.

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PostPosted: 21 May 2017, 08:08 
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One thing about Vectran compared to the aramid fibers is that it can be made into a thinner fiber for use in weaves. Both kinds of fibers are amazingly strong. Beyond the chemistry and physics of these things is the property we care about, which is what these materials do in table tennis blades. (The stability at high and low temperatures, for example, really don't matter to us).

From this I can speak from experience and say that Vectran (arylate) and aramids are pretty similar, and one of the most noticeable effects is vibration absorption, especially the higher frequency vibrations. That is why a Butterfly TBS and a Xiom Stradivarius will feel quite similar even though one uses Vectran-carbon and the other uses an aramid-carbon (I don't know which one and there are quite a few types of aramid fibers). The wood parts are similar.

All other things being the same, adding carbon to the composite weave makes a composite blade play faster. So ZLC is faster than ZL, and an ALC is faster than an AL, and some people think that without some carbon in the composite the blade has an almost mushy feel, and depending on the wood, those blades can also be quite slow.

In the case of Butterfly blades, all other things being equal, the ZLC blades tend to be a little faster than ALC blades and have a somewhat harder or crisper feel when you play with them. The difference between the ZLC and the Super ZLC that Butterfly produces depends on who you read, but there tend to be more comments at various TT forums around the world stating that the Super ZLC is just a little faster. I don't have enough time with either type of blade to offer any sort of valid opinion.

But remember the wood layers matter a lot, and so does thickness of each wood ply (maybe most important thing of all). So for example there are threads out there as to whether these various composites player nicer with koto as an outer layer or with limba as an outer layer. It really comes down to taste I suspect, or what you are used to. I like my Butterfly Viscaria. I have never owned a zylon blade, but I have hit with clubmate's. I think they are good blades but never felt compelled to buy one (because the Butterfly ones at least are stupidly expensive).

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PostPosted: 23 May 2017, 02:01 
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Blade: Andro Treiber
FH: Xiom Vega Pro
BH: Andro Rasant Grip
I remember the Donic (I think) KevPlay. Early eighties. Expensive, as I recall, these early composites - the Stiga Carbon comes to mind.


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