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PostPosted: 07 Nov 2018, 07:50 
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I think the hurricane comparison was a joke.

I can't wait for all the 'what's the best alternative to t05 hard' threads that will come out of this. Then people trying out hundreds of dollars worth of crappy ESN rubbers because they don't want to spend $95 on T05 Hard. It's a good time to be ESN. Xiom is ahead of the pack here with their 55deg omega 7 tour, or whatever it is.


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PostPosted: 08 Nov 2018, 19:50 
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WorkoutMontage wrote:
I think the hurricane comparison was a joke.

I can't wait for all the 'what's the best alternative to t05 hard' threads that will come out of this. Then people trying out hundreds of dollars worth of crappy ESN rubbers because they don't want to spend $95 on T05 Hard. It's a good time to be ESN. Xiom is ahead of the pack here with their 55deg omega 7 tour, or whatever it is.

The companies contract to ESN and they tell them what they want and ESN delivers the product. Andro, Donic, Tibhar etc have their rubber designed to a certain specification and ESN delivers. The latest ESN generation of thick sponge and thin top sheet is probably not receiving the market as well as it could be. I mean newbies ask me more about Tenergy than the stuff coming out of ESN so that goes to show how popular Tenergy is. XIOM and Tibhar MX Range are definitely the two most popular right now but that can change in the near future. It's just astonishing a large company like BTY have kept dominance in the table tennis market for such a long time not changing their product formula where majority of companies have been diversifying because its the only way they have a chance of staying in business. Hat's off to them.

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PostPosted: 08 Nov 2018, 20:06 
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I don't think they're "diversifying" - more like coming up with more and more and more iterations of the same stuff until their catalogs are the size of phone books, because they know what happens if they don't. Butterfly has also been introducing new rubbers - Rozena, Bryce Speed, etc. but even they haven't come up with a Tenergy-beater yet. Neither has anyone else. (So far Butterfly's new rubbers have been for filling sub-Tenergy niches.) Pros keep buying Tenergy (mainly 05) because... why? I dunno - maybe it still IS better than everything else.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 10 Nov 2018, 17:15 
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I find that Tenergy 05 has the best combination of control, speed and spin. ESN rubbers usually only have two of the three. Some of the flagship products, especially the ones labelled as Tenergy Beaters / Alternatives, don't seem to have enough control to go with their speed and spin.

However, I will say that I'm astonished at how good Hexer HD is, especially for the plastic ball - even though it was designed well before the new ball was released. It's even better for the plastic ball than it was for the celluloid ball. It has a much lower throw than T05 and is a bit firmer, but there's something about it that feels a bit like T05. It may be the feeling of the way it spins the ball, it's hard to say. It's an excellent forehand rubber, very dead (for a non tacky rubber) in the short game, with huge spin. High power and loads of spin for looping / driving. High spin with thin AND thick contact. Great ball grab. It's not as linear as a Mantra rubber or T05 though, you need to power through the ball to get the speed, as it has a stiffer topsheet that kind of acts like a barrier to the powerful sponge (which is what makes it so dead in the short game, but also why I wouldn't use it for backhand).

Aurus (original) is also pretty good and grabs the ball in a similar way to T05. It feels slightly different, is slightly harder, has a more natural rubber topsheet. However, when I compare a 3 month old Aurus to a 3 month old T05, I find it pretty hard to find the differences. Once again, great with the plastic ball, yet not designed for it. :)


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PostPosted: 11 Nov 2018, 11:10 
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I think I'm finally going to have to bite the bullet and spring for a sheet of T05. Just to see what all the hype is about. But only after the AK47 dies... :lol:

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 11 Nov 2018, 21:07 
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WorkoutMontage wrote:
I find that Tenergy 05 has the best combination of control, speed and spin. ESN rubbers usually only have two of the three. Some of the flagship products, especially the ones labelled as Tenergy Beaters / Alternatives, don't seem to have enough control to go with their speed and spin.

However, I will say that I'm astonished at how good Hexer HD is, especially for the plastic ball - even though it was designed well before the new ball was released. It's even better for the plastic ball than it was for the celluloid ball. It has a much lower throw than T05 and is a bit firmer, but there's something about it that feels a bit like T05. It may be the feeling of the way it spins the ball, it's hard to say. It's an excellent forehand rubber, very dead (for a non tacky rubber) in the short game, with huge spin. High power and loads of spin for looping / driving. High spin with thin AND thick contact. Great ball grab. It's not as linear as a Mantra rubber or T05 though, you need to power through the ball to get the speed, as it has a stiffer topsheet that kind of acts like a barrier to the powerful sponge (which is what makes it so dead in the short game, but also why I wouldn't use it for backhand).

Aurus (original) is also pretty good and grabs the ball in a similar way to T05. It feels slightly different, is slightly harder, has a more natural rubber topsheet. However, when I compare a 3 month old Aurus to a 3 month old T05, I find it pretty hard to find the differences. Once again, great with the plastic ball, yet not designed for it. :)

Hexer series is pretty well liked among players it's Andro best rubber by a long shot, I know Rasanter is not as popular or its just this latest ESN generation. Tenergy does combine all three categories well and people buy the product. The major brands are probably annoyed over this coupled with the fact that the Rubber market is congested right now and players try something out and go back to what they were originally using. Nothing wrong with trying new rubbers and doing the community a favor with a review but most people go back to what they know and stick with, and rightfully so. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2018, 01:45 
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So Hexer is "Andro best rubber by a long shot"?? Has this always been the case, or is it just because the two new sheets are Hexers? What about Plaxons? And kudos to Andro, most of the old Roxxons and most of the Rasants (except for Chaos) seem to be gone (removes the clutter and lessens the confusion). Back when Rasants were the thing, I asked this question - when would someone choose a Hexer? Or a Plaxon, or a Roxxon, instead of a Rasant? Why? Any reason to use a Hexer when you can have a Rasanter? The advertising blurbs really DON'T help. Eg, for the new Hexer Grip:

Spin, feeling, consistency, control.
Create magic spin: The advanced, plastic ball-optimized top sheet made of 100% natural rubber allows maximum spin and magical flight curves.
Experience amazing control: The 45 ° medium high technology sponge wraps around the ball, increasing the fault tolerance, creating a fantastic ball control.
Powerful catapult and enormous energy generated by large pores in the green sponge.
Constant rotation and high control values deliver high playing comfort.
For players intending to upgrade their versatile offensive game with a lot of spin while maintaining high control

For Rasanter R47:

Your profile is spin driven. Offensive topspin play at higher speed is your strategy.
As a high level player you will take full advantage of the 47° sponge hardness for extra power and speed in your topspin play.
Now You are equipped to perform topspins with a precise curved trajectory and to be creative in the semi distance play as well.


OK, so if you are a "high level player" you would use Rasanter R47, and if you want "magic spin" and "magical flight curves" you'd want Hexer Grip????? Why wouldn't a high lever player NOT want "magic spin" and "magical flight curves"?? :lol:

As for being "designed for the new ball" - it's probably just more marketing verbiage. What do most pros use to deal with the new ball? Good old Tenergy 05....

The current Andro lineup:

https://www.andro.de/products/rubbers/

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2018, 05:00 
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Blade: TSP Versal CP
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BH: Yasaka Rakza 9
At the club couple of state-level players are using the Rasanter rubber ... and I think someone has got the Rhyzer I think Joola ... like Rhyzm ? Anyone tried that yet and how are Rasanter / Rhyzer play compared to say T05 Hard ?

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2018, 08:34 
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While I've yet to try T05 Hard, I use Rasanter in the hardest sponge available, R50.

It's loosely compared to being a "hard sponged tenergy" and that's probably the best comparison I can make. still has a spring sponge, but very hard. Topsheet is more Euro than Tacky, but my forehands are hitting through people, and it plays much like Rising Dragon etc with a grippy instead of tacky topsheet.

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2018, 12:34 
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iskandar taib wrote:
So Hexer is "Andro best rubber by a long shot"?? Has this always been the case, or is it just because the two new sheets are Hexers? What about Plaxons? And kudos to Andro, most of the old Roxxons and most of the Rasants (except for Chaos) seem to be gone (removes the clutter and lessens the confusion). Back when Rasants were the thing, I asked this question - when would someone choose a Hexer? Or a Plaxon, or a Roxxon, instead of a Rasant? Why? Any reason to use a Hexer when you can have a Rasanter? The advertising blurbs really DON'T help. Eg, for the new Hexer Grip:

Spin, feeling, consistency, control.
Create magic spin: The advanced, plastic ball-optimized top sheet made of 100% natural rubber allows maximum spin and magical flight curves.
Experience amazing control: The 45 ° medium high technology sponge wraps around the ball, increasing the fault tolerance, creating a fantastic ball control.
Powerful catapult and enormous energy generated by large pores in the green sponge.
Constant rotation and high control values deliver high playing comfort.
For players intending to upgrade their versatile offensive game with a lot of spin while maintaining high control

For Rasanter R47:

Your profile is spin driven. Offensive topspin play at higher speed is your strategy.
As a high level player you will take full advantage of the 47° sponge hardness for extra power and speed in your topspin play.
Now You are equipped to perform topspins with a precise curved trajectory and to be creative in the semi distance play as well.


OK, so if you are a "high level player" you would use Rasanter R47, and if you want "magic spin" and "magical flight curves" you'd want Hexer Grip????? Why wouldn't a high lever player NOT want "magic spin" and "magical flight curves"?? :lol:

As for being "designed for the new ball" - it's probably just more marketing verbiage. What do most pros use to deal with the new ball? Good old Tenergy 05....

The current Andro lineup:

https://www.andro.de/products/rubbers/

Iskandar


On one hand, you don't want to have a quadrillion different rubbers and cause analysis paralysis for your customers (Xiom). On the other hand, you don't want your competition to take your market share with 'new' rubbers that are progressively 'better' than the last generation. Hats off to Andro for not discontinuing their older rubbers, as they're still quite popular around here (impulse speed, plasma).

Rubber characteristics that are not mentioned in the marketing blurb are more important to me. How dynamic the throw is, whether it uses top sheet grip or pimple grab or a combination to spin / control the ball, how much effort it takes to generate speed / spin, linearity, precision etc. What a lot of modern rubbers lack is precision. I think the super large pore sponges and thin top sheets are partly responsible for this. They go for easy speed and easy spin instead. It's also amazing how the differences between rubbers reduce when you start using correct technique and the body to generate power.


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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2018, 15:09 
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But they did. They did a major clear-out - the only Rasant left is Chaos, and there is only one Roxxon left.

The cynic in me suspects that Hexer Grip and Powergrip are probably just Rasant Grip and Powergrip re-packaged. Maybe even with some minor tweaking and maybe a change in sponge color. So they kill two birds with one very minimal stone - 1) reduce their "old" rubbers and 2) add a couple of "new generation" rubbers. They reused the "Grip" and "Powergrip" names to attract the users of the older rubbers. And people who are curious to see how different these are from the old rubbers. They HAVE to introduce new rubbers every year, whether or not these rubbers are really "new generation" or not.. if they don't others will eat into their market share. It's all in the perception - new rubbers are NEW. Those who overanalyze these things will say they're "new generation" and better than last year's rubbers, whether it's actually true or not. How many generations of Tensor have there been in all? I've seen someone claim eight and that was over two years ago (probably ten now.. :lol: ). What does ESN claim? I wonder.. time to go see, I suppose.

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2018, 15:49 
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Its definitely shady business taken place by many companies and ESN. I don't think anyone likes the situation at hand either with re-branding and re-packaging and the item descriptions being confusing and not direct. Again I think these companies have probably dug themselves a hole from dishonesty and if they came out and were honest BTY would probably get more sales off there them hiding the truth than being upfront and honest. I definitely see with the older tensors generations like your Barracudas, Plasmas, COPPAS, Tangos was that they were precise rubbers which excelled at a all round play style of game, but lacked the spin and speed desired by top players who wanted a cheaper tenergy on the market. People than swapped over to these new generations which were not suited for them and are now these rubbers are losing popularity. Again major brands will push out a new rubber which probably does stuff all and be boasted as the tenergy killer.

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2018, 21:48 
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Not sure how some rubber company like Yasaka have reallly just few good rubbers that keep on selling :-D like Rakza and MarkV
;-)

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  • 729 Bomb : FH/BH-YRD/T5QS
  • DHS PowerG-9 : FH/BH-729SuperFX
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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2018, 23:21 
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@iskandar

The other approach instead of trying what's new would be to only try rubbers that survive a long time. Like Rakza 7, t05, baracuda, fastarc g1. If a rubber is around eight or ten years, and enough players still buy it that the company can't retire the name, then it's probably a good one.


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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2018, 00:51 
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Make sure you use your butterfly free chack II to glue your tenergy 05 hard or the delicate sponge may be ruined! And make sure you are using a butterfly blade and butterfly edgetape if you want edgetape. This is the only way! And don't forget to use butterfly balls or your butterfly paddle will not be as effective!

=)


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