OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Don't know. I have never tried PMP. So I can't compare it to the tensor(like) rubbers I'm playing at the moment. But actually, in my previous post I only wanted to say that you can't NOT notice the difference between let's say Apollo III and let's say Joola X-plode Sensitive. It was my reaction to your statement that:

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20-30% is not trivial, I'd call it a quantum leap. If there really is a difference of 20-30% between Chinese rubber and Tensors, or between the best and the not-so-good Tensors then there really would be a reason to use the best Tensors, no matter what they cost. But if we're talking about the difference between the top rubbers, and are well into the zone of diminishing returns, which we should be in if we're already pushing the technology, I doubt there'd be more than 4-5% of a difference if that.

The thing is, after reading all the stuff that's been written about Tenergy and Tensors, and all the hype in advertising, I WAS expecting a 20-30% difference, a quantum leap, when I tried Palio Macro Pro. Even if it weren't better, I expected it to be DIFFERENT, and that I'd have to make major adjustments. What I found was PMP was so similar to the Palio Dragons (tuned) that I couldn't tell the difference. I CAN tell the difference between the Dragons and, say, 729 or Corbor or even Yasaka ZAP (this last one being non-tacky), but I'd put the difference at less than 10%, if that.

Maybe I should take the plunge and actually buy a sheet of Tenergy 05 just to see what all the hype is about. I'm somewhat reluctant to do so, because I know I can't win. If, by chance, Tenergy 05 is as good as they say it is, AND if it happens that all my whiffed loops suddenly start going in, all my serves start fooling my opponents all of the time, all those pushes I used to put into the net now go over, all my attempted lobs start hitting the table, all my kills now hit the very corner of the table and all those serve returns I used to misread now become successful, then what choice do I have other than to throw out all the Chinese rubber I have and start spending huge amounts of money on Tenergy from now on?

Iskandar

For some perspective, more "speed" (ie closer to ideal elasticity) also means great demands on timing and other precision. The fundamental problem most average players face isn't lack of physical power but an inability to control it, and demanding even thinner margins isn't going to help.

The faster rubbers/blades are good for counters, and those addicted to them without development guidance often have trouble moving beyond that.

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That said there's definitely a 20-30 diff between Tenergy and decent chinese looping rubbers. Some like Moon/Sun are near the upper end of that, and Tensors generally were somewhere in between but reportedly that modest gap to T's been closing recently. PMP is supposedly a ESN Tensor of some sort, seems to be an older one; would be worth getting a Sun/Moon to compare since this Apollo doesn't seem to be the same thing.

Yeah, PMP is an older ESN Tensor - the current Palio 4th generation BIOS tensor is Palio Macro Era. I suspect they've quit making PMP, one of the sponge choices wan't available. But it still retails for more than PME. I got it when it was 50% off (it was still $25).

This evening I played my usual dozen games (doubles) at a friend's place and I'm pretty pleased with the Apollo/9000/N11 combo. Not that I think Apollo's better than the Palio Dragons, but I'm able to do what I need to do with it. It's slightly slower than Seamooned Dragon, possibly a smidgen more control over the table. I had to adjust slightly for slow loops, for hard topspin drives (against pushes, mainly) it is just as good, perhaps with an extra little bit of control - I was hitting more of them today then I was in the past. I really do like the 9000 on the backhand, though - I initially bought this stuff because I thought it'd be cheap stuff to put on loaner bats, it turns out to be good enough for primary equipment.

This coming week I'll try switching between PMP, Apollo and Drunken Dragon (I've got all three on three different N11s) and see what differences I can come up with. And see if I can't make Yasaka ZAP work as well as 9000. I still haven't tried Seamooning 9000 yet, either.

Iskandar

I was browsing Taobao recently and saw that Palio "emperor dragon" or whatever was not a "cheap" rubber at ~25rmb. For context Mars2 is ~the same and Moon/Sun is about double. Generally for these mainstream rubbers elasticity climbs with price (though Mars2 has exact same sponge as the other two, but I suspect bit worse topsheet).

For comparison mercury 2 which is like regular H3 (ie slow) but less durable is ~12. So if we take this as general rule the tacky Apollo isn't going to be that much faster anyway except on high impact shots. As another, Moon Pro (tacky Moon, not dissimilar from H3 Prov) is in the same ballpark.

Retail Emperor Dragon isn't cheap, comparatively speaking - on AliExpress it's about $12-13 (less when there's a sale). But the generic "training" sheets can be had for as little as $4 (though the price goes up to around $5.50-$6 when you add shipping) from ttnpp. There are other outlets that want $8-10 sheet for it, and one that is touting it as "National Version" and wants $20.

Funny thing I've discovered is that the retail Dragons (Emperor and Drunken, anyhow) are now "tuned" - at least they've got the thick glue layer and thick plastic sheet on the back side. Funny thing is the packaging does NOT mention anything about tuning! You'd think they'd want to advertise the fact so they could sell it for more.

I must say I like Yinhe's quality control for their rubber - so far every sheet I've opened is FLAT, unlike a lot of Palio/Yasaka products. I've currently got 9000 on my backhand, I like it a lot. Lots of control, and plenty of speed for put-aways. According to Yinhe's catalog, it's a little faster than Mercury II. Except I'm not using the retail-packaged stuff, I'm using the two-in-a-pack-weirdly-cut-sheets that I think were diverted from Yinhe's premade bat line. Typically $5 a sheet, occasionally less (I think I bought a pair for$3.50 a sheet once).

Iskandar

I did what I should have done a couple weeks ago - write the Yinhe and ask them for their catalogs. The 2014 catalog was pretty low-res, the 2013 one was better. But it's quite confusing. For instance:



For the life of me, I can't figure out if Speed is 10 and Spin is 12 or if Spin is 10 and Speed is 12. And here's the graph:



NONE of the plotted data corresponds to the numbers in the rest of the catalog. Grrr.

Something else I noticed.

2013:




2014:




Yup.. in 2013 they offered Sun with 36,37 or 38 degree sponge. Moon in 37, 38 and 39 degrees. In 2014, they dropped the individual degrees, and offered both in "Medium" and "Hard" only. Medium being 36-38 and Hard being 39-41. They did this to a bunch of rubber - everything except for Big Dipper, in fact. If you find rubber with designated degrees, it's probably 2013 stock. Why did they do this? Probably cost savings, inventory, etc. Disssapointing, but probably makes no difference.

Iskandar

"Data" taken from Yinhe's 2014 catalog (except for Jupiter Pro, which was apparently dropped). Speed and Spin might be backwards (see previous post). Take with a heaping teaspoon of salt. Price is list, no one pays list of course, and are interesting because you see what Yinhe considers "premium" vs. "cheap". They all cost about the same to make, I suspect, secret super ingredients notwithstanding. Turns out Apollo III is the most expensive of the lot (and the "best"?).

Speed Spin Price Sponge Notes
Big Dipper 12 10 150 38,39,40 Max Tense Gods Crossbow
Apollo II 10 12 98 S,M Max Tense
Apollo III 12 10 192 M,H Max Tense
Sun 12 9.5 130 M,H Max Tense Arbalest
Moon 11 9.5 130 M,H Max Tense Arbalest
Moon Speed 11 12 130 S,M Max Tense Gods Crossbow
Saturn Pro 9 12 188 XS,S,M Energy + Gods Crossbow
Jupiter Pro 12 10 98 35,37,39 Gods Crossbow
Jupiter 12 9 85 M,H,XH
Saturn 10 10 188 S,M,XH
Earth 11 9 45 M,H,XH
Mars II 12 8 65 S,M,XH Max Tense
9000D 8 7 30 S,M
9000E 8 7 30 S,M
Mercury II 10 7 30 S,M MoXA
Venus II 12 9 100 M,H Max Tense

Quite a few things come out. Why buy Apollo 3 (RMB 192 RMB), for instance, when Big Dipper (RMB 150) has the same speed and spin ratings, AND God's Crossbow to boot, for less money??

Also no mention whatsoever of the generically packed Sun Pro and Moon Pro (there was a Jupiter Pro and still is a Saturn Pro).

An arbalest, by the way, is a crossbow. Probably not divine, though.

Iskandar

Thanks iskandar taib

Yes, the ratings themselves don't give you all the rubber properties... there's much more to it than that.

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Price comparisons.

Price Price $ T.G. Price$ ebay Price $ eacheng
Big Dipper 150 21.50 19.99
Apollo II 98 20.47 13.50 16.99
Apollo III 192 19.66 14.68 18.99
Sun 130 14.87 14.68 15.90
Moon 130 14.80 12.96 15.90
Moon Speed 130 21.59 19.99
Saturn Pro 188 26.95 21.67
Jupiter Pro 98
Jupiter 85 13.83 12.80 11.99
Saturn 188 30.18 22.65
Earth 45 10.34 9.00 8.50
Mars II 65 13.12 11.23 9.49
9000D 30 8.46 4.63 4.00
9000E 30 8.46 7.00 4.00
Mercury II 30 8.91 5.47 6.00
Venus II 100 14.37 11.99 11.95

Some real bargains to be had if you shop around. Ebay prices seem the lowest most of the time once you factor in shipping.

Iskandar

Graphed. I mainly wanted to see if there was a correspondence between the catalog list Renminbi price vs. the USD prices on Tianjin Guanghe on AliExpress, Eacheng.net and China-Friend on ebay (as you know, these are really all the same company). Indeed there is, but there are anomalies (things costing less in RMB but more in dollars). The best bargains seem to be on ebay, especially when you add shipping to the eacheng.net prices (which don't include it). In many cases the ebay price may actually be lower than the eacheng.net price, even though the shipping is free. But China-Friend doesn't have everything (no Big Dipper and Saturn, for instance), and listings on ebay are volatile - they last only until they expire, and when they get relisted the prices may not be the same. Similarly, AliExpress is notorious for having frequent sales (some of them quite substantial). A couple of the ebay prices are based on multi-sheet purchases (e.g. the 9000D).



Here's the actual spreadsheet screen capture (something bad happens when I post it as text). Big Dipper might SEEM TO BE a bargain in RMB, but it isn't in dollars. Might be worth keeping an eye out on ebay in case it appears, note how much cheaper the premium Apollo III is on ebay compared with elsewhere.



Iskandar

Speed vs. Spin graphed, compare to the published graph! Data printed in the same catalog....



Iskandar

It's true that Mars II is not very spinny and probably faster than the other rubbers mentioned in their range. But Apollo III fast? IMO, it is extremely slow and dead.

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Beats me - I've got a sheet of Apollo III on my regular bat for the last three weeks and it's just slightly slower than Seamooned Emperor Dragon, not dead at all. But to someone who plays with Tenergy it might seem dead, like H3 would seem to be dead. It's certainly faster than the 9000 I have on the backhand, and I can really slap some really hard backhands with that stuff. Even so, I wouldn't say the difference is dramatic, I could flip the bat around and it wouldn't take too much to adjust.

I've got a sheet of Mars II, a couple of sheets of Venus II (different sponge hardnesses) and a sheet of Jupiter to try - just based on what I've seen so far I expect differences to be subtle between the sheets. Oh.. and a sheet of Mercury II as well (which is supposedly VERY slow).

My take on the whole thing is there's no real practical need for 15 different kinds of rubber from Yinhe. They all fall into the offensive. chinese-sy category, and if they pared it down to maybe five or six they'd have all the angles covered and there'd be a rubber to suit anyone who would want to use an offensive, chinese-sy type sheet. But they make and sell 15 different kinds of rubber with minor differences between them. Why? Simple. It sells a lot more rubber. It gives the rubber fanboys something to talk about (what with the God's Crossbow sponge and all) and something for them to spend more of their money on. Besides, all their competitors are doing it, and they'd fall behind if they didn't. Like Apple, they have to come up with a new model every year or two to stir up a buzz, but unlike phones and computers the advances are pretty tiny and subtle, if they exist at all.

Iskandar

You will find that the difference between Mars II (non-tacky, lighter, springier, faster) and Apollo III (very tacky, spinny, very heavy, slow) is actually quite big. I'm going to glue a freshly boosted Moon Pro on one of my blades now, and I'll test it tomorrow.

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