OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Don't get your hopes up, though - my powers of description are notoriously weak when it comes to playing characteristics!

Iskandar

That's why I'm interested, to see whether the average player, like me, can really tell the difference between a top tensor and $5 random dragon and then whether it actually makes any difference.

Same with the blade.

_________________
Donic Waldner Senso V1,FH Baracuda Big Slam 2.0mm ,BH Victas Triple Regular 2.0mm

I just mounted a sheet of Wildish Dragon (some of the clear-packed stuff from ttnpp for $4) and a sheet of Kokutaku 868. The resulting racket weighs 172.3 grams - lighter than all three of my N11s, but within 0.5 grams of all of them, so it's about my ideal weight. I'll probably get to hit with it this weekend.

Now here's a Tale of Two Dragons.

Packed back to back in one of those foldover cellophane bags were two sheets of Generic Dragon from ttnpp. One had the Emperor Dragon topsheet, the other had the Wildish Dragon topsheet (I have several more sheets like these from ttnpp). Which got me to think - what exactly IS the difference?? I'd never bought Wildish Dragon in the retail packaging because it's relatively expensive, and when I enquired about the sponge, 48-50 (!) degrees, which must be rock-hard. In the generic packaging, the Wildish sponge seemed about the same hardness as the Emperor sponge, though they were a different color (Emperor - mauve-grey, Wildish - a pale rose pink). Both had the same markings (which I think means "medium hard" - 40-42 probably). Weight? I've weighed three sheets of Emperor and two sheets of Wildish Generic so far:

Palio Emperor Dragon Generic
red 67.51g 169x167mm 0.240 g/cm^2
black 65.03g 167x168mm 0.232 g/cm^2
black 60.93g 169x169mm 0.213 g/cm^2

Palio Wildish Dragon Generic
black 61.12g 166x166.5mm 0.223 g/cm^2
black 63.38g 162x164mm 0.241 g/cm^2

Wow.. quite a bit of variation. Probably a good thing I don't work at ttnpp, or I'd be spending evenings weighing sheets and keeping the lightest ones for myself! I suppose Palio is known for not-so-good QC (or at least, it's known to ME because I've bought a lot of their stuff).

Obligatory photos:

Wildish Dragon:


Emperor Dragon:


Extreme blow-ups - 2.02cm x 2.02 cm. I'm going to try to process these to see if I can get the pips to stand out, and then maybe I can compare pips diameters and density. Easier to do with red sheets, of course..



Iskandar

One problem I've just had with Rasant. That big pore sponge soaks up glue like a, uh, like, er, uh, well, like a sponge. Perhaps for this rubber, and other large-pore sponge rubbers, the added expense of a glue sheet might be warranted. I can just imagine using something like this during the speed glue era - it'd probably soak up a pint of glue before there was enough to glue the sheet to the blade!

Iskandar

First time using Rasant today. I replaced a sheet of Venus II on N11 #1, the racket lost perhaps 3 grams.

As I expected - as previous experience with many rubber sheets has made me come to expect - the differences between Rasant and other rubbers is subtle - it's not something that rears up at you and says "I'm different!" or "I'm superior!". I wasn't expecting as huge a change as when I tried (briefly!) medium pips, but I was expecting something more dramatic than I actually experienced, given the hype that surrounds Tensors in general and the Rasants in particular, and the price difference. Rasant is supposed to be at the upper end of the speed range, according the Andro's web site, and true, it's noticeably faster (rasanter? ) than Apollo III (even after the Apollo III has lost all it's tack) but it's no faster than the Generic Emperor Dragon (particularly after the latter's been Seamooned). In any case, I don't think anything faster would actually help my game. Is it spinnier than Apollo III and E. Dragon? I can't tell, really. I can now put enough backspin on serves to cause players who play a lot better than I am to put the ball in the net, but I find I can do this with a variety of rubber sheets. If I do it right, I get the spin, if I don't, I don't, and the rubber doesn't actually matter all that much.

I find looping with Rasant feels nice - today was a good day with little to no wind so I was making a lot of loops. But when I flipped the bat around (I've got 729 Sky Wing on the other side of this particular bat) I couldn't tell that there was much of a difference. There ARE rubbers I don't like for looping - Mars II and Venus II in particular - I can loop with them but it takes more of a conscious effort. My success with loops seems to be more related to conditions - who I play or hit against (obviously), but also if the wind is blowing (my weekend games are in someone's porch). Even the slightest breeze will cause problems, sometimes there's a significant wind and then it becomes hopeless and even pushing doesn't work half the time.

So if this sounds like faint praise, it is.. Rasant's good rubber, but so are a lot of others I've tried. I'll continue using it (until it dies) but I don't know if I'll get any more. I actually wanted to get PowerSponge (softer sponge, less speed) but the plain Rasant was on sale and PowerSponge wasn't.

Incidentally, there's a new, sixth Rasant, this wasn't there last month:

http://www.andro.de/home-en/rubbers/rasant-beat-en-gb/



Beat??? Like Alan Ginzburg Beat?? Mebbe not..

"Huge sound, big fun! The Beat Box among all soft rubbers! High potential for monsterspins! Impressive failure tolerance! More balls reach their destination! The ultra soft sponge leads to a longer ball contact time, in which the topsheet grips the ball to balance slight imprecisions. The new pimple system which is designed to fit to the sponge’s characteristics optimizes the playing feel and makes it easier to tap the rubber’s full potential!"

Again, does anyone find the above description helpful? According to Andro's web page (the one with the sliders) Beat is softer/slower than PowerSponge (which means it's the slowest in the Rasant line).

Forget the video linked on that page - it doesn't have anything to do with the Beat.

Iskandar

Nice one Iskander, wondered if that were the case. Now for the Stiga blade.

_________________
Donic Waldner Senso V1,FH Baracuda Big Slam 2.0mm ,BH Victas Triple Regular 2.0mm

I spent a couple hours hitting with the Stiga Allround Classic this evening. This was in the lobby where I work, and is better for testing things than where I play on weekends (where doubles - very competitive doubles complete with trash talk - and which often turn into pushing matches - is usually what happens, and it's outdoors, so weather - i.e. wind - is a major pain in the rear). The usual person I hit against in the lobby doesn't hit very hard and is somewhat predictable so I can try my loops and hits with more success than otherwise. I wish he could block back more of my loops but you can't have everything...

Before I took out the Stiga - it's got a sheet of Generic Wildish Dragon on the forehand and Cheap Pink 868 on the other side, neither Seamooned (as yet ) - I hit for a few minutes with what I've been using most these last few weeks - N11 #3 with the Apollo III/9000 (both have totally lost their tack, and look absolutely grotty, but play as well as they ever did). And as in the case with sessions in the lobby, I start out very well, making nice loops and hits. I REALLY like the Yinhe 9000 on the backhand - I can hit some really hard shots with that, better than I can with Skywings. Consider that it costs $4.50 a sheet (if you get four sheets at a time on ebay)...

So after some minutes of this out comes the Stiga. Brand new rubber sheets, really tacky. Wow. Well, I did as well with the Stiga - really looping zingers (including some off short backspin over the table, which I hadn't tried much before). Very nice blocks and REALLY nice backhand drives (maybe the 868 is as good as the 9000..? ). What was I thinking at this point? It plays... well, not EXACTLY like a N11, but very much like it. Remember how different I thought the N11 was from my earlier blades, how I had to adjust to play with it, how it wasn't until I'd played with it for a couple sessions that it REALLY grew on me, and that switching to other blades required major adjustment. The Stiga felt like the N11.

And then I messed it up by going back to the N11. As one would expect, the Stiga blade is slower. Not a huge amount slower, but enough that my loops weren't just going long, for some reason I'd misjudge the stroke enough that the contact was too heavy and the ball would arc three feet over the table and miss the end by three yards. Yikes! Adjustment time. It took some concious thinking to get back to where I was again hitting the ball right. And then I get the Stiga out again - what do I do with it? Mess up a bunch more loops again, that's what. And my backhands were now going into the net! By this time I was getting tired, and it was time to pack up.

So first impressions don't actually count for much, it takes some switching back and forth to see the contrast between blades (and likely rubber as well). It wasn't that the Stiga was too slow or the N11 too fast, it was that the difference in speed was enough to throw off some of my strokes. I'll definitely play with this racket some more, it does feel nice. What I'd really like is a thinner N11 - the Stiga is 5.3mm thick, the N11 6.6mm. I'm wondering what a 5.5mm thick N11 would play like. It'd probably lose some of the nice feel when hitting but it might be a better blade overall for over the table play and for looping.

Meanwhile, N11 #3 is going to be out of service this coming week because I'm going to try Falco Long on the Apollo III! And I have an idea for restoring a rubber's tack - I want to see if that works.

Iskandar

Nice evaluation. I find the Stiga slower and softer.

_________________
Donic Waldner Senso V1,FH Baracuda Big Slam 2.0mm ,BH Victas Triple Regular 2.0mm

It's definitely slower, but not as slow as some rec rackets I've tried. The difference between it and the N11 isn't dramatic.

Iskandar

Interesting discovery. Sanwei T88-III is available as single sheets in the BLUE shrink wrapped pack:



OR in a two-in-one GREY pack (which may or may not be a vacuum pack):



The single pack is about $9.50 (for the next 16 hours at New-New Shop) and the double pack for $11.70 at the same place:

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/S ... 14710.html

Why would anyone want to buy a single pack???? The double pack brings the price down to $5.80 a sheet - almost down to my standards. Sanwei also sells "T88-Top Speed" "training rubber" in a 2-for-1 pack, this is cheaper, about $4.50 a sheet. I tried it, plays OK but is very heavy.

I'm tempted to order just to see what it's like, but T88 rubbers are all supposedly QUITE heavy. I also doubt it'd play any different than the many other sheets I've tried already.

Here's the "Engrish" on the back of the packet:

"Adopts MP system rubber to compound in balance and unsmooth sucking disc technology on surface of rubber. Matched with light macromolecule honeycomb structrue sponge, under the status of good speed and power, it has clearer hand sense; when hit, it produces melodious sound and strong attack. When rubbde, it has unique low frequency sound wave and produces strong rotation.

It is applicable to loop fast attach playing of forehand and backhand."

Sucking disc, huh? And check out the symbols on the double pack. There's "Supple Sponge", "Tense" (looks like a wedge of Swiss cheese) and best of all, "Tenacious Violence"! Not as good as "God's Crossbow Sponge", but it's funny enough. These symbols don't appear on the single pack.

Iskandar

Got a sheet of this by diligent use of AliExpress coupons and "playing the Eachengs" for $16 (it's usually over $20). Again, not "training rubber" - indeed, this is the most expensive Yinhe rubber (unless you count the Pro versions of Moon and Sun). A few interesting observations. The packaging is, as noted by others before me, totally unlike all the other Yinhe rubbers - no vacuum pack. Instead, it's packed like some of the high end 729 rubbers - in a very fancy foldout cardboard container, even fancier than what I've seen from 729:



The whole thing is folded up (there are holes in the packet that allow the topsheet to show through) and packed in a flimsy foldover-sealed cellophane bag. There's an ad for that rubber cutting machine inside.

The packet says NOTHING about the rubber being tuned, but it's got all the indications that it is - a heavy coat of rubber adhesive on the back with a heavy protector sheet over it. Despite the 38 degree rated sponge, the sponge feels very firm (to the forefinger and thumb squeeze test) - more so than, say, 729's 40-42 rated "training sponge". Note the actual use of the word "tensor" on the packaging!



Mimicry? Note the four trimmed corners (does this signify that there are special "provincial" and "national" versions, with no trimmed corners?) and the blue sponge like you know what. I've mounted this on N11 #3, we'll see how it plays.

Data:

Yinhe Big Dipper
black 38 degree 68.38g 165x167.5mm 0.251g/cm^2

Sort of moderately heavy (compared to my usual Emperor Dragon) but not excessive (like Venus). About the same as Apollo III. The corners made calculating areal density a bit more of a problem, but no big deal.

Iskandar

Hit with it a little this evening. OK, it's fast-ish, I can produce lots of spin with it, it hits and loops nicely, what's new?

Turns out it's not tacky, even of it does come with a protector sheet - maybe slightly more so than Mars (which, IIRC, didn't have a protector sheet).

Iskandar

Got my double pack of T88-III in.

Interesting in that it's NOT vacuum packed - just a folded piece of printed card and the usual flimsy resealable cellophane envelope containing two sheets. Yeah, it's got the Swiss Cheese and Excessive Violence on the front. Not sure what the deal is - are these a manufacturing overrun? The price is certainly nice - less than $6 a sheet.



The sponge has, surprisingly, NO markings on it. This is unlike those sheets of T88-Topspeed I bought last year (those WERE vacuum packed, and had elaborate markings on the sponge, despite being $5 a sheet..).



Now, a VERY nice surprise:

T88-III (double pack)
red 57.65g 165x165mm 0.212 g/cm^2
black 60.99g 160x160mm 0.238 g/cm^2

Hey! It doesn't weigh a ton (like T88-Topspeed did). It is, in fact, quite light. Back then, I was led to believe that T88 rubbers were all heavy.

Iskandar

Played some with the T88-III today. It's pretty good, about the same speed as the Palio Emperor Dragon I usually use. I tried it on a new blade (more on that once I'm ready). It's supposed to be a "looping rubber", but heck - everything I've tried is a "looping rubber", or at least, I can't tell a looping rubber from a non-looping rubber (except for 729 563 - ).

Also - surprisingly - I got in an order from ttnpp that I placed 2 weeks ago. No 2 month wait this time. What was it? Only 12 sheets of the $4 "training" Emperor Dragon...

Iskandar

Another packet arrived today, with two sheets of rubber. Zhibin came through again!

729 Battle I

I got black, with the max sponge, 40 degree. The topsheet does look thick.



Gee.. that sponge color look familiar?? You can see the big pores, even in this view. Topsheet is definitely nontacky, there's something other than the usual 729 inspection sticker on the protector sheet. Packaging is typical 729, like you get with FX or XL - folded over (with a "spine" in this case) glossy card stock printed on one side, except this one has an added flap at the open end, sealed into a (non-resealable cellophane envelope). NOT like their very high end rubbers, though - Sky King/Wing and 563 have card stock printed on both sides and the closing flap is as big as the sheet. Funny - you'd think this would be THE premium 729 rubber at this time. The information panel on the back of the packaging is, strangely enough, blank.

729 Battle I
black 40 deg 63.47g 166x165mm 0.234g/cm^2

It's actually quite light - just a gram or so heavier than 729FX, about the same as Mercury, Emperor Dragon, and many other sheets, lighter by maybe 5 grams than Big Dipper, WAY lighter than Venus II.

KTL Pro XT



I've been meaning to get a sheet of this for a while, mainly because it was intriguing. Large pore green sponge - like Rasant?? Packaging was nice glossy cardstock in a resealable cellophane envelope (much like Kokutaku 868, but with better cardstock). The photograph above doesn't do justice to the sponge - it's a pale, lime-green color (Rasant is a deeper green). What gave me a double take, though, was it's weight:

KTL Pro-XT "Green Dragon"
black 2.2 sponge 47.77g 163x167mm 0.177 g/cm^2

WHOA. That's LIGHT. This is full 2.2mm sponge, too. It weighs less than 729FX WITH 1mm SPONGE. Sky Wing/King is 5 grams heavier. You would save, on a 200 sq. cm racket, 10 grams over a 63 gram rubber. WOW. This goes on the Septear next.. Why so light? The topsheet is ultra-thin - the thinnest I've ever seen in an inverted sandwich.

Both rubbers have large-pore sponge:





Compare with Big Pore 729FX and Rasant:



Rasant's pores are bigger. 729FX's are more abundant, otherwise you'd think perhaps the 729 Big Pore Sponge was a prototype for Battle. The KTL sponge looks somewhat like Rasant's though the pores are a lot smaller.

I'll get to hit with these in a few days, I hope.

Iskandar