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PostPosted: 05 Aug 2014, 15:39 
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Are they allowed to do this? On ittf.com there's only one listing for CJ8000. Yet, if you look on Eacheng.net, there's three types of topsheet: A (1.6mm thick, allround), B (1.5mm thick, speed) and C (1.4mm thick, "light and fast"):

http://eacheng.net/index.php?act=detail&ID=1202
http://eacheng.net/index.php?act=detail&ID=3397
http://eacheng.net/index.php?act=detail&ID=3398

Combine this with a half dozen types and thickness of sponge and no wonder there are 2 dozen kinds of CJ8000! See the back of the packaging of this:

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 34861.html

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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2016, 16:27 
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Blade: Palio TCT
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It was around the year 2002 when I first heard of these different versions, and they're still available in different options now in 3rd quarter of 2016 without any attempt to question legality; so I consider it to be a 'yes, it's legal'.

Having bought the CJ8000 36° biotech (which, I assume, is 36° on the Chinese hardness-scale) a while back and which, btw, performs extraordinarily well on my TCT, I'd like to know more about them.
Is it correct to assume that those different versions like 2-side-loop, extreme-spin, allround, short-court or medium-court are also either one of these different ABC-types, and if yes, which one is it in each case? Is there, besides the hardness, a difference in the character of the very sponge used?

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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2016, 19:44 
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It is most certainly not legal...but I expect the ITTF just has not bothered to do anything about it... perhaps they only act on complaints.

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PostPosted: 06 Dec 2016, 17:41 
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Blade: Palio TCT
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So, 2-side loop and biotech make use of the B-type rubber. Sponge used is also the same and after PO-ing and pepperminting the 2-side loop it also does feel very similar to the biotech, so I guess I can save a few $s from now in future orders. This PO-effect should last 4 weeks, maybe longer.
PO-ing the surface once also adds some stickyness and makes the top-layer a tad softer also, but it has to be refreshed every +-2 weeks. Rubber should still be Enez-legal 30+hours after treatment. $6/sheet sounds more than fair, and theres the option to get it even cheaper on Taobao, for those able/willing to use it.
Speed is good/high on Palio TCT and on HRT Palisander VII, I really can't complain. Some of my colleagues mentioned the rubber to be somewhat slow but then they have very hard times to reach topspins and shots, not to mention the trouble of just returning them.
Apart from the single 1" dark spot on the first biotech I did not have any quality-issues so far.

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PostPosted: 06 Dec 2016, 18:38 
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Time to have another look at CJ8000. No, I'm not buying more, just having another look at what's available. I've got pretty much every single sheet listed here, anyhow. Most are still sitting in the vacuum pack. The Mother Eacheng AliExpress Store's Palio rubbers are listed on this page:

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/ ... 05522.html

I count no fewer than TEN different CJ8000s. Four of these are Biotech. The "normal" ones are mostly $5.50-7.50 a sheet (or or two in the $10 range) and the Biotechs, which are are about $10 a sheet - except for one, which is $18 a sheet! Anyhow, here they are, in order of appearance:

Image

38-41 sponge, $6.04 a sheet.

Image

38-41 sponge, $5.81 a sheet.

Image

Biotech, "Short, Middle Court, Loop, Attack", $18.57 (!) a sheet. Must be special.

Image

"Two side loop type", $6.79 a sheet.

Image

40-42 degree sponge, $7.08 a sheet.

Image

"Light and Fast Type", $8.57 a sheet.

Image

42-44 degree sponge, $7.43 a sheet.

Image

Biotech, "Two Side Loop Type", $10.02 a sheet.

Image

"All Round Type", $10.49 a sheet.

Image

Biotech, "Near-table-loop+attack Type", $12.17 a sheet.

Image

Biotech, "Short Middle Court Loop-Attack", $10.20 a sheet.

What a confusing mess!!! :lol: Don't know if you're saving much money over Biotech (not that I noticed much difference anyway). Peppermint???? P.O.????????? Your bats must be pretty fragrant.. :lol:

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 06 Dec 2016, 22:04 
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I use less than 5% peppermint-oil in parrafine-oil, apart from pure parrafine-oil (lamp-oil). I also have a small bottle with bees wax dissolved in parrafine-oil and I am not sure if this, used as prime-layer, does give some additional stability.
Apart from the first few hours after application it's not smelly at all.

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PostPosted: 07 Dec 2016, 02:16 
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I guess that explains the "P.O." - do you use the odor-free lamp oil or do you use kerosene? The purest sort would be jet fuel (Jet A/A-1 or JP-8 would be the current one), and Shell sells some highly refined paraffins for industrial use (e.g. ShellsolD60). I was under the impression everyone dabbling with boosters was using vegetable oils, this is the first time I've heard of petroleum-based oils being used. Most boosters are a lot thicker than paraffin oil, the lone exception being the Tuttle.

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PostPosted: 07 Dec 2016, 05:29 
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Don't forget all the "Japanese Sponge" versions of CJ8000. I used those for years and considered them a steal at $12 a piece from TTNPP.

Shoot me a PM if you are interested in trying out a sheet or 2 or 5!

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PostPosted: 07 Dec 2016, 08:52 
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This is low odour lamp-oil, with 10 carbon atoms (C10+) so it's almost ENEZ-neutral. You may know it as kerosene, but kerosene could also be C6+ which would give much more boost but would fail at ENEZ for sure.
But of course, the available boosters do have a much stronger effect anyway. It's just a way to get some 'biotech'-effect on the standard-rubber without spending lots of money on it.

The biological/organic version would also be useable but it does have little to no boost-effect unless something else is added (D-limonene for example).
I'm stunned that you've heard it for the first time that someone is using it, since it's the major ingredient of (80% and more) of several boosters around.

By the way: CJ8000 biotech doesn't like lamp-oil or olive-oil on the topsheet. I've tried twice but I had to remove it/clean the rubber with white-spirit.

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PostPosted: 07 Dec 2016, 14:29 
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ttnpp's CJ8000 page:

http://ttnpp.com/store/55-cj8000

Even more of a mess - there's six "Biotech" versions, and one they claim is some sort of "Tensor":

Image

You'll notice this packaging is missing from the list of what's available at Eacheng.

Two of the Biotechs have Japanese sponge, and they want an extra $3 for those. The others are all $8.50 each (this, however, doesn't include shipping). I've never been able to figure out what this "Biotech" business is about, other than the logo is mimicking ESN's "Bios" logo.

I've tried all sorts of Palio rubber - CJ8000, Hadou, the various Dragons, and also Yasaka ZAP, which is made by Palio - and to be honest, there really isn't anything special about any of them. Biotech, GP sponge, Japanese sponge... can't really tell the difference, to be honest. They all work equally well, EXCEPT for one thing - all the CJ8000 sheets and all the Yasaka ZAP sheets, as well as certain Dragon sheets (in the retail package) had varying amounts of "dish" - right out of the packet, they curl towards the sponge. In some cases the only way to mount them on a blade was to use booster, to flatten them out. Otherwise you end up with a crease in the topsheet. I think it's bad manufacturing - they didn't allow the sponge to fully shrink after vulcanizing before slicing to thickness and attaching to the topsheet. As a consequence, the sponge shrinks after assembly.

My favorite Palio rubber, actually, is this:

http://ttnpp.com/store/cj8000/746-palio ... ers-6.html

Half the price of CJ8000, and about $5.50 a sheet once you've added shipping. They're excellent.

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PostPosted: 07 Dec 2016, 22:44 
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$3-4 more for a japanese sponge would be an option in late 2017 early 2018 - unless I decide to go with AK47 anyway.

Question is which standard japanese sponge does give a bounce similar or a tad more compared to 36-39°chinese biotech CJ, with less weight or even better ability to hit? 42-44°?

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PostPosted: 07 Dec 2016, 23:23 
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Heck, there's only two of them - just buy both and try them out. My guess is that the difference will be tiny anyway. Yeah it's ej'ing, but it's pretty low budget ej'ing (as long as you can control yourself not to go bananas and buy dozens of sheets. :lol: ). Throw in a couple sheets of the generic Dragon while you're at it.

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PostPosted: 08 Dec 2016, 01:57 
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Red wrote:
This is low odour lamp-oil, with 10 carbon atoms (C10+) so it's almost ENEZ-neutral. You may know it as kerosene, but kerosene could also be C6+ which would give much more boost but would fail at ENEZ for sure.
But of course, the available boosters do have a much stronger effect anyway. It's just a way to get some 'biotech'-effect on the standard-rubber without spending lots of money on it.

The biological/organic version would also be useable but it does have little to no boost-effect unless something else is added (D-limonene for example).
I'm stunned that you've heard it for the first time that someone is using it, since it's the major ingredient of (80% and more) of several boosters around.

By the way: CJ8000 biotech doesn't like lamp-oil or olive-oil on the topsheet. I've tried twice but I had to remove it/clean the rubber with white-spirit.


I'm thinking that this concoction would be more akin to the old ASTI Booster (i.e. old-time speed glue without the glue part) that was on sale back around 1998-1999. It was some secret recipe, of course, and probably had a lower molecular weight than lamp oil. but it smelled distinctly fruity. Like speed glue, the effects wore off quickly (a matter of 2-3 hours at the most). Yours is probably heavier than ASTI Booster (I'm pretty sure ASTI Booster would fail the VOC test) so the effect probably lasts longer, at least long enough to flatten out a sheet to get it on the blade. The current boosters that are on sale are a lot thicker than lamp oil, if they contain alkanes (which I doubt), they'll probably be around C15 (C20 - icosane - is already a solid wax). They're supposedly based on vegetable oils, but they do seem to have this stringy, sticky property to them (in particular, Wendy's and Falco Long). I'd love to know what's in them - there is a GCMS on the premises, maybe I could interest someone in a little project... I'd probably have to pay for the argon or whatever it is they use in it, though.

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PostPosted: 09 Dec 2016, 12:18 
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Actually, if you think about it... With all the different versions available, they're still missing something - special versions for the 40+ ball. :lol: :lol: :lol: Maybe new for 2017... :lol:

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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2017, 19:17 
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I guess I should call that cleaning liquid 'gasoline' instead of white-spirit. Or should I call it lighter-fluid?

The CJ8000 biotech from September had to be removed in the meantime due to a few small bubbles where it has lost contact to the sponge, I guess. I blame it on some strange interaction between the original biotech treatment and my POing-attempts.
The non-biotech CJ8000 is still fine after worse treatment with PO and several oils. I now have an unboosted biotech which had aired a month in an open package and on first sight it feels similar to a non-biotech CJ8000 with the top beeing a tad more sticky. I will use it this evening to determine if there's any boost left to it.
Household-boosting (about 2 layers) gives a tad less boost but seems to last longer, especially with refreshing the PO after 1-2 month, a single layer seems to do the job here. Rubber needs >1 day to air out after treatment, a thin layer of PO on the top boosts the grip as well.
So far it seems that my next seasons FH-setup after summer will be a PO-boosted standard CJ8000 which can be obtained for +-$6 shipping included. I may go for a harder sponge towards the end of the year. It should be o.k. as long as the top-sheet is B-type.

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