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 Post subject: Re: Nexy Karis review
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2017, 01:19 
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 Post subject: Re: Nexy Karis review
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2017, 10:29 
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LordCope wrote:
Stiga mantra too.


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I tried Mantra M. Definitely prefer Karis. In terms of play, didn't see a whole lot of similarity. Karis seems to have more dynamic range.

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 Post subject: Re: Nexy Karis review
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2017, 14:07 
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viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30126&start=15#p332944

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

Judging from the list of clients posted on their website:

Quote:
Japan Table Tennis Co., Ltd., Thamas Co., Ltd., Yasaka Corporation, Yamato Table Tennis Co., Ltd., Jas Co., Ltd., Juic Corporation
(Yes) East Lane International, Kato Rubber Co., Ltd., Hua Yong Trading Co., Ltd.


(Nippon Takkyu = Nittaku, Tamasu = Butterfly, Yamato Takkyu = TSP, Yasaka, Juic, not sure who the others are)

Daiki probably OEMs far more than Regalis and Valmo. Who knows what percentage of the Japanese rubber brands available are made by them. Maybe even Sriver and Mark V, maybe even Tenergy (though I think Butterfly also has their own factory and may keep manufacture of the more modern rubbers in-house).

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 Post subject: Re: Nexy Karis review
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 10:55 
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Something I should add to my review after two months of playing with Karis M. I continue to like, will continue to use it on both sides, and I am now very impressed with its durability. No decline at all. It is pretty amazing. I am surprised, because the topsheet was so thin I was afraid durability would be a problem but far from that.

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 Post subject: Re: Nexy Karis review
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 13:49 
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These review reminds me of the new TSP Regalis.


First time I've seen this review on here. Very nice read Baal :clap:

And if its truly like Regalis, I can feel some EJ-ish thoughts brewing :devil:

The review certainly has many points reminding me of the rubber that is still on my bat since I reviewed it nearly a year ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Nexy Karis review
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 23:09 
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I am quite sure that the main Secret Ingredient in Karis is its pip structure (it is as close to not having any as it is possible to be and still be ITTF legal). So a couple of months later I can say confidently that it is not just a matter of the rubber being slower than MX-P or Tenergy. In fact Karis M is not really all that slow on my Viscaria (although clearly slower than the MX-P or T05, which I had used for the previous decade). It was not slower than Mantra M on the same blade, not when you wanted some rip on the ball. Still, you can't be lazy. As for M+ I only played it a couple of days and then my second sheet of M arrived. Like NL said it is harder and didn't feel as good to me. Not sure why. It is not like I am allergic to harder rubbers, but M just works better on my blade. Maybe I would like it more now but not going to bother to check.

The topsheet of Karis is very very grippy (but not at all tacky) and has this odd dull color that just gets duller with time. But the grip seems to not diminish with use. Two months in I honestly can't feel any difference from when it was new.

I think Karis needs a pretty fast blade.

I haven't tried Regalis.

But when I have hit a few balls with some other rubber (most recently EL-S) I wondered how I managed to play with those kinds of things, everything seemed so random!!! NL and I have wondered if it would be possible to have the same predictablity in a rubber that was somewhat faster overall. As time has passed, I no longer care much, I have adjusted to this and get plenty of penetration now when I need it.

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 Post subject: Re: Nexy Karis review
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2017, 15:06 
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I have used mine 4+ months !!!! Since Nov 2016. Prolly got over 250 hours on it. The rubber looks the part of high mileage, but isn't cracking up. I could prolly stand it another 100 hours before I replace it. I should feel ashamed having access to piles of the rubber when i want it and still sticking with the same topsheet until it is unserviceable (which still looks like a long way down the road)

I constantly tell people what got me to switch is its performance in rallies vs topspin, the tipping point. We all knew it was linear control rubber. I just make more shots and they are mostly pressure to the opponent.

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 Post subject: Re: Nexy Karis review
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2017, 15:12 
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Baal wrote:
The topsheet of Karis is very very grippy (but not at all tacky) and has this odd dull color that just gets duller with time. But the grip seems to not diminish with use. Two months in I honestly can't feel any difference from when it was new.

But when I have hit a few balls with some other rubber (most recently EL-S) I wondered how I managed to play with those kinds of things, everything seemed so random!!! NL and I have wondered if it would be possible to have the same predictablity in a rubber that was somewhat faster overall. As time has passed, I no longer care much, I have adjusted to this and get plenty of penetration now when I need it.


My topsheet looks duller than a butter knife, but it grips it.

I sometimes flip the bat and play MX-P on my FH (When I put on Karis, I had a fresh sheet of MX-P on there for the NA Teams tourney, but I left it on since it was new) I cannot understand HOW I controlled MX-P, (after playing with Karis and adjusting) I land a LOT more of my shots with Karis, I know I had adjusted to MX-P, but nearly to the degree I have with Karis.

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 Post subject: Re: Nexy Karis review
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2017, 03:27 
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Very interesting impressions posted, thanks to all testers. One might wonder whether this sensation of increased control is mainly due to the instant comparison between a fast tensor and a linear rubber in the beginning of using Karis (just the opposite to what Baal and Der_Echte describe when switching back).

The thing I personally noticed is that switching to the slower setup is indeed in most cases giving me the sensation of increased control for the first few hours/days - more shots landing, increased confidence, still enough power when needed, in other words, almost everything described in this thread. But a few days/weeks pass, and, although the comfort stays, my play level is still the same, probably with the technique becoming more slappy with the more forgiving setup ;)

Inversely, I can usually rather quickly adapt to a faster setup within a couple weeks, with the return speed as the only limiting factor.

Any ideas how to differentiate the memorized sensation of increased control vs actual constant increase? If some of the testers played competitively and were willing to share the dynamics of their rating, or the results vs higher rating players (to whom they were losing before) acquired at least after 1-2 months of using Karis, it could probably shed some light.

Personally, I am really interested.


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 Post subject: Re: Nexy Karis review
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2017, 04:10 
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I have to say that I have been very stable in using the same setup for quite a while now, but Karis M in 2mm is looking very appealing for a summer experiment! Hmmm....

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 Post subject: Re: Nexy Karis review
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2017, 09:25 
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so_devo wrote:
I have to say that I have been very stable in using the same setup for quite a while now, but Karis M in 2mm is looking very appealing for a summer experiment! Hmmm....

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


Well, the offer of trying my sheets out is open to any reasonably solid and well-known forum member of sound mind and body...


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 Post subject: Re: Nexy Karis review
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2017, 12:15 
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al_111 wrote:
Very interesting impressions posted, thanks to all testers. One might wonder whether this sensation of increased control is mainly due to the instant comparison between a fast tensor and a linear rubber in the beginning of using Karis (just the opposite to what Baal and Der_Echte describe when switching back).

The thing I personally noticed is that switching to the slower setup is indeed in most cases giving me the sensation of increased control for the first few hours/days - more shots landing, increased confidence, still enough power when needed, in other words, almost everything described in this thread. But a few days/weeks pass, and, although the comfort stays, my play level is still the same, probably with the technique becoming more slappy with the more forgiving setup ;)

Inversely, I can usually rather quickly adapt to a faster setup within a couple weeks, with the return speed as the only limiting factor.

Any ideas how to differentiate the memorized sensation of increased control vs actual constant increase? If some of the testers played competitively and were willing to share the dynamics of their rating, or the results vs higher rating players (to whom they were losing before) acquired at least after 1-2 months of using Karis, it could probably shed some light.

Personally, I am really interested.


All I can say is that it has been a couple of months now. I don't have quite the same sense of wonder at the thing that I did at the start, but I still have more confidence in a lot of shots. And it's not entirely because it's slower. It's not all THAT slow. I don't find it slower than some of the other recent offensive rubbers, like Stiga Mantra M. Maybe a little slower at the top end than EL-S. Has my overall level improved? I honestly don't know. My guess is that there are a lot more limiting issues than what rubber I use. But I very much enjoy using it. One thing for sure, my defense has improved (I am definitely not a defender and I have no doubt about that) and I think my serve return is at least a little better. Is it "feel but not real"? I really don't know to be honest, overall.

One other thing, the first few weeks my technique was a bit "slappier" with Karis but that was temporary. Now I think I make up for the reduced speed with a bit more rotation on strokes.

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 Post subject: Re: Nexy Karis review
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2017, 13:27 
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AndySmith wrote:
so_devo wrote:
I have to say that I have been very stable in using the same setup for quite a while now, but Karis M in 2mm is looking very appealing for a summer experiment! Hmmm....

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


Well, the offer of trying my sheets out is open to any reasonably solid and well-known forum member of sound mind and body...


And someone who's better at describing/evaluating the playing qualities of rubber than I am... :lol: Though I wouldn't mind a piece of the cut-offs (for dissection and photography...)

Iskandar


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 Post subject: Re: Nexy Karis review
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2017, 14:08 
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There's been mention here of a Nexy blog post about Karis, so I looked on this forum for a Nexy blog. Could've sworn I've seen one in the past but can't find it now. Anyhow, I was pointed to the Nexy blog on another forum:

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_po ... ners-diary

I will quote the entry on Karis here, because, I think, few people will have seen it in the other place (it's worth a look, lots of stuff about blades):

What Makes Karis Different?




It’s been a while since I promised to write more about Karis. In order to explain more details about this rubber, I will first summarize what I previously wrote:

The history of soft rubber development met a big obstacle when the ITTF initiated the “speed glue” ban. Speed gluing relies on using a chemical to penetrate deep into the sponge to soften the material and add elasticity, which increases speed and spin. After the speed glue ban policy, many brands had to find a new way to enhance rubbers.

So, we could find two different ways among rubber brands. German rubber manufacturers began making high-tension rubbers that focused on artificially expanding the sponge, such as Nimbus and Sinus.

Japanese manufactures like Butterfly turned away from high-tension rubbers like Bryce into a new line of bubbled sponge rubbers. Tenergy adopted a new sponge that has air capsules inside. This air capsule worked as a spring that helped to keep the elasticity of the sponge. But many high-tension rubbers have a problem with unexpected ball movement against powerful shots. High-tension rubbers tended to become solid and they could lose the power to catapult the strong shot by top players. Therefore, many high level players moved away from European brands to Butterfly’s Tenergy05. Note: Tenergy is not a pure synthetic rubber product — it began using a boosting technology from the beginning.

Sometime later, ESN started to produce bubbled sponges as Butterfly did, and Genius of Tibhar became the first release. These bubbled sponge rubbers could work well with hard sponge rubbers, and ESN released many hard rubbers in order to compete with Tenergy.

But, like the high-tension rubbers, those hard rubbers had stability problems, e.g., unexpected ball movement.

When we adopt a hard topsheet to drive the ball, the rubber tries to hold on as long as possible (upward movement), but in the same time, a hard sponge tries to expel the ball quickly (returning movement). Those two different directions could confuse the final ball movement. So, players experience unexpected ball motion when we play with a hard topsheet + hard sponge rubbers. MX-P is a good example for this phenomenon.

During this period of rubber development, there was another big change in table tennis. The ITTF introduced the plastic ball, which was heavier and players could not generate as much spin as they did before with celluloid balls. So, many brands tried to make a more powerful rubber, which resulted in a hard topsheet assembled on a hard sponge. But they could not solve the strange feedback problem. So, ESN switched from a hard top sheet + hard sponge to softer topsheets. A good example of this is Tibhar’s 5Q and Quantum.

At the same time, Butterfly also tried to minimize this problem. Their Tenergy05 became softer than before, and they also released many other soft version rubbers, such as Tenergy 80, 64, and 25.

To sum up, the trend in top quality rubber configuration became a softer topsheet with a hard sponge. But I thought that hard topsheet supported by hard sponge rubbers were still more attractive to many players, even though they sometimes had issues with odd rubber feedback.

I thought about how I could make a new NEXY rubber that featured a hard topsheet + hard sponge without that unexpected ball movement. This is the key reason why Karis is different from all the trendy rubbers.

Karis did not try to solve this problem by only changing the chemical recipe. We also tried to test shorter columns in order to make the topsheet move in sync with the sponge. As previously explained, we tried to eliminate the problem of the topsheet not moving in harmony with the sponge. So, by cutting the column shorter, we could build-up a rubber that moves harmoniously with the sponge.

I am revealing this secret because I know that other brands cannot easily find the optimum length with optimum materials. When we first tested several other rubbers with this shorter column structure, we discovered that many rubbers became extremely dull. It’s not easy to find the good composition with this shorter column topsheet. I will welcome other brands to use my idea, but they will have to pay the fee as I spent two whole years on this new rubber.

That’s it! Karis does not have the inherent problems that other top quality hard topsheet rubbers often do. You can trust this rubber. You will feel that this rubber shows only one strong movement, and you will like this direct motion through the whole depth.

We are sure that our rubber will be good, but it will take some time for you to get accustomed to this direct feeling. Give it a try, and you will have no more stress from the instability of powerful rubbers.

Karis will be released during the final week of October, and the price will be $50 USD all over the world. Spread the word because this is a quite a revolutionary change in rubber history, and you will see that one small Korean brand broke through a big wall that many other global brands could not overcome.

Thank you for reading this.


There's a lot of information in there about rubbers in general and about Karis in particular.

1) About Tenergy and Tensors.

He talks about "air capsules" in Tenergy, I interpret this to mean that the sponge has enclosed air bubbles which don't allow air to flow through pore spaces. This appears as "large pore sponge", - the "pores" are actually bubbles which don't touch each other, as opposed to the sort of pores you find in a bath sponge, which allow air to flow from one pore to another. I suppose it would work just as well if these pores were a tenth the size, but perhaps it is easier to control during manufacture if the pores (and pore walls) were large. Apparently this was a new concept that came in with Tenergy, but ESN has come out with their version of it, so the difference between older Tensors and newer ones is this "air capsule" technology. You can see it here in the Rasant sponge.

Image

In contrast, here's 729 FX with the large pore sponge:

Image

There are a LOT more pores, I wonder if the "capsules" are closed off..

2) Hard rubbers and "loss of control"

He says that with hard topsheet/sponge:

Nexy wrote:
When we adopt a hard topsheet to drive the ball, the rubber tries to hold on as long as possible (upward movement),


(I must admit, this part mystifies me.)

Nexy wrote:
but in the same time, a hard sponge tries to expel the ball quickly (returning movement). Those two different directions could confuse the final ball movement. So, players experience unexpected ball motion when we play with a hard topsheet + hard sponge rubbers. MX-P is a good example for this phenomenon.


you lose control with hard shots. Perhaps not the same thing as shots "bottoming out" (that's a problem with soft sponge, isn't it?). Karis is supposed to alleviate this problem.

I suspect I'm not able to hit the ball hard enough to even have this problem to begin with.. :lol:

3) As mention here and elsewhere, the trick is ultra short pips. Makes you wonder what we would've had if they hadn't mandated pips under "inverted" rubber in 1959. What would Karis play like with NO pips? Just a smooth topsheet. One thing's for sure - if this is truly revolutionary we'll see other manufacturers adopt the concept. We'll see ultra-short pips under inverted topsheets from ESN, and from the Chinese. Unless Nexy helps them (i.e. reveals the secret formula rubber, etc.) they won't be obligated to pay licensing, and we'll see a variety of these appear. Some will work better than others. If they can shrink the pips while keeping the topsheet thickness the same we'll probably see thicker "max" sponge as well (maybe 2.4mm? 2.5mm?). I'll bet ESN's looking into this already, so is DHS.

Iskandar


Last edited by iskandar taib on 23 Mar 2017, 14:10, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Nexy Karis review
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2017, 19:13 
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iskandar taib wrote:
AndySmith wrote:
so_devo wrote:
I have to say that I have been very stable in using the same setup for quite a while now, but Karis M in 2mm is looking very appealing for a summer experiment! Hmmm....

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


Well, the offer of trying my sheets out is open to any reasonably solid and well-known forum member of sound mind and body...


And someone who's better at describing/evaluating the playing qualities of rubber than I am... :lol: Though I wouldn't mind a piece of the cut-offs (for dissection and photography...)

Iskandar


Not at all mate - if you want to give them a go, just send me a PM and I'll post them out to you!


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