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 Post subject: Chinese vs Euro
PostPosted: 08 May 2018, 12:38 
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Typically in the past, Chinese rubbers have been tacky and hard whereas Euro are traditionally non tacky and softer. There are examples of the opposite however I'd like to stick with the typical characteristics for now. I'm also talking tensors and all rubbers out of the packet, not boosted.

Apart from the physical characteristics, what are the playing characteristics. Are there many Chinese rubbers that are as fast as Euro tensors?

What tends to be better for pushing, blocking, slow spinny loops, loop drive, smashes etc.

Also the difference between a Euro loop and Chinese loop confuses me. Surely the ball can only tell the bat speed and angle at point of contact rather than how it got there. I would have thought style is somewhat irrelevant.

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese vs Euro
PostPosted: 08 May 2018, 13:16 
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People tend to obfuscate fact with their own opinions when talking about the difference between Chinese and Euro/Non-Chinese rubbers.

From a factual perspective (at least, generally), Chinese rubbers are:
- Harder Sponged
- Softer, Tackier Topsheet
- Lower Quality control so bigger variance between sheets

Where it gets mixed up is where things "work" for some people with one type of rubber, and not with another. This bleeds out, thinking one is just good for one thing or better than the other, but in reality they're just different. It does depend on level, with Euro style tending to work for the "middle" of the bell curve and Chinese for either end.

BECAUSE of the rubber properties, you'll find new players will often say that they find chinese better for everything, and as they get better keep finding they make mistakes -try a euro and voila! Miracle!

The main difference for you and the direct answer to part 1:
- Chinese rubbers, as they are hard but soft and sticky topsheet, Use this topsheet as the main reagent in spin creation are generally considered better for service, service return, and pushing
- Euro rubbers, which are soft sponged in comparison and non-tacky, with a matt or "grippy" feel on the topsheet - are generally better for high spin loops, lobs, and loop drives

Smashes and "No spin" you might find easier with Chinese, but not necessarily more effective.

The difference between the chinese and euro loops are technique based, rather than rubber specific. the chinese "straight arm" loop works well for chinese rubbers, because the hard sponge/tacky topsheet really needs a lot of power behind it to make the most of the shot. This is why you hear people talking about "gears" etc being more available to you with Hurricane etc. The loop is generally a bigger swing, with a softer ball contact, but hitting much "harder" to really activate the spong. The "euro" loop, due to the relationship between softer sponge and topsheet, does not need as much brute force to get maximum power. it's a bit more of a catapault/spring effect. It means you'd find soft and spinny, slow loops easier - you can still get to high power - but instead of brushing and hitting at full pace, you need to angle your bat to close the topspin.

All in all, what you use comes to preference and what you like to do. I personally used chinese when i was at the peak of my game. Now I'm still training, but have gone to an almost hybrid rubber, as I tend to value my short touch game but need the ability to "spin up" when in Defense.

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Chinese: You get out what you put in!
Euro: Wow, I didn't know you could loop that?
Dan

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese vs Euro
PostPosted: 08 May 2018, 13:25 
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Cobalt wrote:
Also the difference between a Euro loop and Chinese loop confuses me. Surely the ball can only tell the bat speed and angle at point of contact rather than how it got there. I would have thought style is somewhat irrelevant.


The difference is in that one type of loop (if done properly) produces more bat speed than the other does, at the expense of longer setup and recovery times. Also, it's not just bat angle but also the direction of bat movement, since the contact is NOT instantaneous, despite what a lot of people say. It takes time (if only milliseconds) for the rubber to compress and then rebound. If the rubber does not compress then rubber hardness is irrelevant, and we all know it is not.

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese vs Euro
PostPosted: 08 May 2018, 14:55 
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I'm guessing that any high level player with a Euro loop would generate a lot more bat speed than the rest of us chumps regardless of what type of loop we do. Thats why I'm thinking style is irrelevant, its just bat speed.

So are there any Chinese rubbers that are quicker out the pack than tensors, based on an intermediate swing or do you need that bat speed to get the most out of them?

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese vs Euro
PostPosted: 08 May 2018, 18:02 
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I think that the chinese loop technique is not only a question of bat speed in the ball hitting phase.
It's also a question of blade direction and lifting the ball.

European style is more like lifting the ball with the bat while hitting the ball. You get a bit more force upwards and more curve and a slightly slower ball.
Chinese style is more lifting the ball with your legs and the bat forces the ball more foreward. this results in a slightly flatter curve and more speed.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese vs Euro
PostPosted: 08 May 2018, 19:07 
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Cobalt wrote:
I'm guessing that any high level player with a Euro loop would generate a lot more bat speed than the rest of us chumps regardless of what type of loop we do. Thats why I'm thinking style is irrelevant, its just bat speed.


You're right, then again I don't think it takes Ma Long level looping to be able to take advantage of Chinese rubbers. While it probably wouldn't make a difference to me there are probably lots of 2000+ rated folks on this forum who swing hard enough (or have the potential to swing it hard enough) where it might.

Iskandar


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese vs Euro
PostPosted: 08 May 2018, 21:13 
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Note I did a search as I expected the to be other similar posts but nothing came up. Just noticed i spelt my search wrong hence now we have another one of these threads.

Oh well, nothing like covering old ground. After all this forum survives on what bat should I buy threads. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese vs Euro
PostPosted: 09 May 2018, 06:29 
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One main thing that Chinese sticky rubbers do well is the is the topspin counter loop which is very popular in recent years lead by Ma Long. With the sticky topsheet the counter loop can be done at very low height, even below table, and still have power and pace. You can't do that with a Euro rubber for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese vs Euro
PostPosted: 10 May 2018, 13:02 
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tt2u wrote:
One main thing that Chinese sticky rubbers do well is the is the topspin counter loop which is very popular in recent years lead by Ma Long. With the sticky topsheet the counter loop can be done at very low height, even below table, and still have power and pace. You can't do that with a Euro rubber for sure.

Funny you should mention that, because as a 'long time' sticky rubber user, I always found this to be one of the hardest things to do. Because the surface grip is so high on tacky rubbers, the balls grip so hard I always has trouble keeping it on the table.. most loops just went over the end due to the high incoming topspin. You need to close the bat angle so much to keep it on, that the margin for error was too high for my technique.
No doubt the ball will be loaded if you do manage to counterloop. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese vs Euro
PostPosted: 10 May 2018, 14:46 
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tt2u wrote:
With the sticky topsheet the counter loop can be done at very low height, even below table, and still have power and pace. You can't do that with a Euro rubber for sure.


????


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese vs Euro
PostPosted: 10 May 2018, 15:33 
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tt2u wrote:
One main thing that Chinese sticky rubbers do well is the is the topspin counter loop which is very popular in recent years lead by Ma Long. With the sticky topsheet the counter loop can be done at very low height, even below table, and still have power and pace. You can't do that with a Euro rubber for sure.
Ive switched from a DHS Neo 3 to Xiom Vega Europe, recently - I don't counter loops, too often. However, I find myself doing it a lot more, that too with decent success, ever since I've switched to the XVE + Defplay combo.. Not sure if it's the rubber, or the blade, or a. Combo of both..

I don't have a brushing action, when top-spinning, so I feel, the XVE(most Euro or Jap rubbers) is better suited to my style, compared to the NEO 3; at least on the FH. I find this style of rubber to be more forgiving, and requiring less effort to generate speed/power.. Better at lifting back-spin..

Blocking, on the other hand, I feel, was much easier/better/more effective, with the Neo 3. Same with over-the-table pushing, and even chopping, to an extent... Flat-out hitting too was better...



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 Post subject: Re: Chinese vs Euro
PostPosted: 10 May 2018, 17:37 
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@haggisv, I think you do close the bat angle a bit more compare to looping underspin and blocks but the key to me is precise, strong, explosive footwork. Tired legs is not a good match for Chinese rubbers. What helps me the most to get the right feel is lots of multiballs.

@carbonman, if you take a look at the recent match of XX vs Frankziska in the wtttc final you will see my point. XX is topspining the ball below the table half of the time during counter loops and killing his opponent. It's very difficult to finish a point below the table if you are not using a Chinese rubber. Euro rubbers are too fast and doesn't "hold" the ball well to get that kind of trajectory.

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese vs Euro
PostPosted: 10 May 2018, 18:25 
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tt2u wrote:
@carbonman, if you take a look at the recent match of XX vs Frankziska in the wtttc final you will see my point. XX is topspining the ball below the table half of the time during counter loops and killing his opponent. It's very difficult to finish a point below the table if you are not using a Chinese rubber. Euro rubbers are too fast and doesn't "hold" the ball well to get that kind of trajectory.

tt4u - why do you assume the telling variable to be equipment and not technique? XX has a huge swing and generates enormous power whereas Franziska has a far more economical swing. If XX used Euro rubber and Franziska used Chinese rubber do u really think there would be any significant change? Look at players like Rye Seung Min and Kim Taek Soo. They used Euro rubbers and could loop powerfully from anywhere because they had powerful technique. Even back in the day, players like Jonyer could hit blindingly powerful loops from low balls using Sriver. At a slightly lower level...If you have some strongish loopers (say above 2400) at your club get them to show you how to loop powerfully off low balls with Euro rubber, its not that difficult.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese vs Euro
PostPosted: 10 May 2018, 20:05 
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tt2u wrote:
One main thing that Chinese sticky rubbers do well is the is the topspin counter loop which is very popular in recent years lead by Ma Long. With the sticky topsheet the counter loop can be done at very low height, even below table, and still have power and pace. You can't do that with a Euro rubber for sure.


Really??? Weren't Jonyer et al. doing this back in the 1970s using plain old Sriver?? Albeit with speed glue.

Huh.. just noticed that Carbonman posted the exact same thing.. :lol:

Iskandar


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese vs Euro
PostPosted: 10 May 2018, 21:52 
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I've got a bye next week so will take the chance on Saturday to have have a little experiment with my rubbers.

Last week at practice I used my Gewo Robles OFF- with Flexxon Soft 1.9mm. Then I switched to Yasaka extra with Haifu whale and did instantly tell it was slower. Not sure if more or less spinnier, though loops were hitting more the middle of the table than the end but this could also have been due to speed.

This week I'm going to play with them the same for a bit then so the two rubbers to see if it makes any difference. I'm wondering if the Robles week so be faster or even if the gap is bridged a little. Will help me understand good things work.

I wonder what I'll find.

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