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PostPosted: 29 Mar 2019, 07:44 
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Blade: Sanwei Fextra
FH: Sanwei Target National
BH: Palio Hadou 40+
Greetings,
I have been playing with the Sanwei Target National on my FH for the past few months. I play an attacking looping game. While STN has decent performance, it lost its tack very quickly and is nothing exceptional. I'm contemplating getting a tacky rubber to replace it and am considering either the Palio Hk1997 Gold or the 729 Bloom Power.

Has anyone played with both rubbers and, if so, could you share your experience and what you would recommend? I would prefer it if the tack lasts for a while similar to the H3. The reason I'm not looking at buying the H3 is that, from what I've read, you need to go for the national version to get a decent sponge and I'm not looking to spend that kind of money at this time.

EDIT: What about the Hurricane 8 40 deg in comparison to both of the above?

Thanks!

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Primary: Sanwei Fextra, Sanwei Target National on FH, Palio AK47 red on BH
Backup: Sanwei M8 Junior, Gambler Burst on FH, Stiga Mantra M on BH
Motto: Always Learnin'


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PostPosted: 29 Mar 2019, 09:59 
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Blade: Hurricane Long 3
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BH: Tibhar MX-P
I have played with Palio 1997 only briefly, and although I have a sheet of Bloom Power, it is still in the packet. Sorry this won't be a direct answer.
But in your situation, I would buy H3 Provincial, which is a very predictable rubber in my experience. Noticeably better than the standard H3 and a reasonable price. You could also look at 729 Battle 2, which is tacky and works well with softer blades. I suspect that the Bloom series are similar. Loki GTX Pro is my current personal choice though for an H3 alternative.

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PostPosted: 29 Mar 2019, 20:09 
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Blade: Yinhe V5 Kiso-Hinoki
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BH: Sanwei Target National
Would you please let us know wha tis your usual cleaning routine. I am personally interested in it cause I play STN too and simply would like to know what to expect from this rubber.

I haven't used hurricane 8 myself, but I regularly play against two people who use H8. One guy uses soft version the other hard, H40. So, from what I can tell 40 degrees is a way harder than STN, so will really need to adjust. I dont think that tackiness of H8 lasts longer than STN. They both complained that after 2 months it is reasonable to replace H8.

I cannot give you a hint which exact rubber to use as a replacement. But on your FEXTRA blade DHS H39/H38 degrees will feel somewhat similar to STN. On 729 scale H47 will feel harder than STN, so H45 is probably closer. From my personal experience the durability of tackiness on these rubbers is very similar: Hurricane III commercial H39, STN, 729 08 ES H47/H45 However sponges of these rubbers are so much different.


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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2019, 02:08 
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darucla wrote:
I have played with Palio 1997 only briefly, and although I have a sheet of Bloom Power, it is still in the packet. Sorry this won't be a direct answer.
But in your situation, I would buy H3 Provincial, which is a very predictable rubber in my experience. Noticeably better than the standard H3 and a reasonable price. You could also look at 729 Battle 2, which is tacky and works well with softer blades. I suspect that the Bloom series are similar. Loki GTX Pro is my current personal choice though for an H3 alternative.

Thank you for the recon recommendation. Hurricane 3 provincial comes with yellow and blue sponge. What is the difference between them? The blue sponge version is much more expensive.

fmarek wrote:
Would you please let us know wha tis your usual cleaning routine. I am personally interested in it cause I play STN too and simply would like to know what to expect from this rubber.

I haven't used hurricane 8 myself, but I regularly play against two people who use H8. One guy uses soft version the other hard, H40. So, from what I can tell 40 degrees is a way harder than STN, so will really need to adjust. I dont think that tackiness of H8 lasts longer than STN. They both complained that after 2 months it is reasonable to replace H8.

I cannot give you a hint which exact rubber to use as a replacement. But on your FEXTRA blade DHS H39/H38 degrees will feel somewhat similar to STN. On 729 scale H47 will feel harder than STN, so H45 is probably closer. From my personal experience the durability of tackiness on these rubbers is very similar: Hurricane III commercial H39, STN, 729 08 ES H47/H45 However sponges of these rubbers are so much different.

My usual cleaning routine is to wipe off the rubber with a wet sponge and put a non-sticky plastic sheet on it. If you say the level of tack is the same for Hurricane 3 compared to STN, that would mean it shouldn't make a difference at least from that perspective. The sponges may be different but that wasn't my primary complaint about the STN so it may or may not matter for me to go with a different rubber. That leaves me in a dilemma whether I should even change it at this time.

Too many decisions.. :@ :@

Thanks!

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Thanks!
LTT

Paddles
---------
Primary: Sanwei Fextra, Sanwei Target National on FH, Palio AK47 red on BH
Backup: Sanwei M8 Junior, Gambler Burst on FH, Stiga Mantra M on BH
Motto: Always Learnin'


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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2019, 04:12 
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Blade: Gambler IM8 Hinoki
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learninTT wrote:
darucla wrote:
I have played with Palio 1997 only briefly, and although I have a sheet of Bloom Power, it is still in the packet. Sorry this won't be a direct answer.
But in your situation, I would buy H3 Provincial, which is a very predictable rubber in my experience. Noticeably better than the standard H3 and a reasonable price. You could also look at 729 Battle 2, which is tacky and works well with softer blades. I suspect that the Bloom series are similar. Loki GTX Pro is my current personal choice though for an H3 alternative.

Thank you for the recon recommendation. Hurricane 3 provincial comes with yellow and blue sponge. What is the difference between them? The blue sponge version is much more expensive.

fmarek wrote:
Would you please let us know wha tis your usual cleaning routine. I am personally interested in it cause I play STN too and simply would like to know what to expect from this rubber.

I haven't used hurricane 8 myself, but I regularly play against two people who use H8. One guy uses soft version the other hard, H40. So, from what I can tell 40 degrees is a way harder than STN, so will really need to adjust. I dont think that tackiness of H8 lasts longer than STN. They both complained that after 2 months it is reasonable to replace H8.

I cannot give you a hint which exact rubber to use as a replacement. But on your FEXTRA blade DHS H39/H38 degrees will feel somewhat similar to STN. On 729 scale H47 will feel harder than STN, so H45 is probably closer. From my personal experience the durability of tackiness on these rubbers is very similar: Hurricane III commercial H39, STN, 729 08 ES H47/H45 However sponges of these rubbers are so much different.

My usual cleaning routine is to wipe off the rubber with a wet sponge and put a non-sticky plastic sheet on it. If you say the level of tack is the same for Hurricane 3 compared to STN, that would mean it shouldn't make a difference at least from that perspective. The sponges may be different but that wasn't my primary complaint about the STN so it may or may not matter for me to go with a different rubber. That leaves me in a dilemma whether I should even change it at this time.

Too many decisions.. :@ :@

Thanks!


Hi Learnin,

Have you ever considered trying Gambler Burst again? I have it on Thor's Hammer on 2 blades. 1 sheet is 3 months old playing 5+ hours a week and the other is 3 weeks old. Both will hold a ball for at least 6 seconds upside down. I like them much more than I liked the "old school" Chinese rubbers, as well as H3 neo.


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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2019, 04:34 
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Blade: Sanwei Fextra
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TheKLeifheit13 wrote:
Hi Learnin,

Have you ever considered trying Gambler Burst again? I have it on Thor's Hammer on 2 blades. 1 sheet is 3 months old playing 5+ hours a week and the other is 3 weeks old. Both will hold a ball for at least 6 seconds upside down. I like them much more than I liked the "old school" Chinese rubbers, as well as H3 neo.


TheKLeifheit13,
Thank you for chiming in with that recommendation. It is funny you should mention it but I have been looking at Gambler Burst Thor's Hammer as well. I have played with the Burst GearZ in the past, which has a too soft sponge for my liking, but not with Thor's Hammer. It was OOS for a while but seems to be back in stock again. How would you rate the hardness of the Thor's Hammer sponge in DHS degrees?

Thanks!

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Thanks!
LTT

Paddles
---------
Primary: Sanwei Fextra, Sanwei Target National on FH, Palio AK47 red on BH
Backup: Sanwei M8 Junior, Gambler Burst on FH, Stiga Mantra M on BH
Motto: Always Learnin'


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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2019, 11:55 
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Blade: Yinhe V5 Kiso-Hinoki
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learninTT wrote:
My usual cleaning routine is to wipe off the rubber with a wet sponge and put a non-sticky plastic sheet on it. If you say the level of tack is the same for Hurricane 3 compared to STN, that would mean it shouldn't make a difference at least from that perspective. The sponges may be different but that wasn't my primary complaint about the STN so it may or may not matter for me to go with a different rubber. That leaves me in a dilemma whether I should even change it at this time.

Too many decisions.. :@ :@

Thanks!


I do pretty much the same, but in addition, in the end of the week I use droplet of liquid soap and water to get rid of sweat. Once dried, ball will then stick for long time. No magic really. And I agree there is no point in changing rubber brand if you are only after better tackiness. But ...

On the other hand why do we need tackiness? People tend to think that it helps to spin the ball. Yes sure it does, so why not all rubbers are made tacky!? Jap style rubbers, for example Palio AK47 red or blue, would spin your ball not less than tacky STN, but these are just "grippy" top sheets and not sticky at all.

Sure you know it better than me that tackiness in Chinese classic rubbers is to compensate for the otherwise short dwell time because of hard sponge. Did you notice that if top sheet is not tacky then it will not have hard sponge. And opposite, if there is hard sponge then topsheet is made tacky to win back some dwell time. So what I am trying to say here that when we choose to go for tacky Chinese rubbers we normally want to get that hard sponge on the racket, tackiness comes as extra little bonus. Our playing style then different - full body rotation, power from your hips and etc (ask boxer does he hit using hand power or hips and torso power? You might be very surprised ...) Similar mechanics here. If we want to use Chinese classic sponge we do full swing shots to bend that hard sponge and make it work. Tiny wrist/elbow motions are not powerful enough to do that.

So 1) if you are not doing any of that or not purposely learning towards these skills and 2) putting Chinese rubbers on your blade because of tackiness cause it helps to spin the ball, take it easy and go for soft sponge but grippy topsheet. Here is an example of such topsheet. Black is zero tacky, while red is lightly tacky but they produce heavy spin even from backhand.

Attachment:
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20190318_201942.jpg [ 504.19 KiB | Viewed 1253 times ]


Attachment:
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20190318_202356.jpg [ 174.65 KiB | Viewed 1253 times ]


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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2019, 20:22 
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fmarek wrote:
I do pretty much the same, but in addition, in the end of the week I use droplet of liquid soap and water to get rid of sweat. Once dried, ball will then stick for long time. No magic really. And I agree there is no point in changing rubber brand if you are only after better tackiness. But ...

On the other hand why do we need tackiness? People tend to think that it helps to spin the ball. Yes sure it does, so why not all rubbers are made tacky!? Jap style rubbers, for example Palio AK47 red or blue, would spin your ball not less than tacky STN, but these are just "grippy" top sheets and not sticky at all.

Sure you know it better than me that tackiness in Chinese classic rubbers is to compensate for the otherwise short dwell time because of hard sponge. Did you notice that if top sheet is not tacky then it will not have hard sponge. And opposite, if there is hard sponge then topsheet is made tacky to win back some dwell time. So what I am trying to say here that when we choose to go for tacky Chinese rubbers we normally want to get that hard sponge on the racket, tackiness comes as extra little bonus. Our playing style then different - full body rotation, power from your hips and etc (ask boxer does he hit using hand power or hips and torso power? You might be very surprised ...) Similar mechanics here. If we want to use Chinese classic sponge we do full swing shots to bend that hard sponge and make it work. Tiny wrist/elbow motions are not powerful enough to do that.

So 1) if you are not doing any of that or not purposely learning towards these skills and 2) putting Chinese rubbers on your blade because of tackiness cause it helps to spin the ball, take it easy and go for soft sponge but grippy topsheet. Here is an example of such topsheet. Black is zero tacky, while red is lightly tacky but they produce heavy spin even from backhand.



Thank you for the tip about using a drop of soap with the water once a week. I will try that and see.

I am aware about the link between tack and the hard sponge although my understanding was that, with the Chinese technique, you don't try and engage the sponge fully but go for brush shots with the sponge providing some assistance but never fully compressed. Of course that requires a near-perfect technique and adequate leg/upper body power which most people who are not in the CNT don't have.

That being said, you do bring up a good point that maybe tack is overrated as the cause for spin if your technique is not correct.

At this time, based on all the feedback, I've decided to stick with my STN and will try the Gambler Burst Thor's Hammer when I decide to change from it.

Thanks!

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LTT

Paddles
---------
Primary: Sanwei Fextra, Sanwei Target National on FH, Palio AK47 red on BH
Backup: Sanwei M8 Junior, Gambler Burst on FH, Stiga Mantra M on BH
Motto: Always Learnin'


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2019, 05:10 
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learninTT wrote:
Thank you for the recon recommendation. Hurricane 3 provincial comes with yellow and blue sponge. What is the difference between them? The blue sponge version is much more expensive.


The blue sponge has magical properties. :lol: That's why the Chinese National Team doesn't use the orange sponge. By the way, try to find red sheets with blue sponge.. those are supposedly the most magical (maybe because they don't exist..).. :lol:

If it's something that remains tacky that you're looking for, well I just came across this:

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=35229&start=15#p367244

Image

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Double- ... 76205.html

It, too, has magical blue sponge... :lol:

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2019, 05:32 
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iskandar taib wrote:
learninTT wrote:
Thank you for the recon recommendation. Hurricane 3 provincial comes with yellow and blue sponge. What is the difference between them? The blue sponge version is much more expensive.


The blue sponge has magical properties. :lol: That's why the Chinese National Team doesn't use the orange sponge. By the way, try to find red sheets with blue sponge.. those are supposedly the most magical (maybe because they don't exist..).. :lol:

Iskandar

:lol: :lol: You can always rely on Iskandar to bring some levity to the situation. :lol: :lol:

From what I have read online, including on Coach EmRatThich's site (https://pingsunday.com/dhs-hurricane-3- ... rricane%27), the blue sponge is harder and faster. The trick seems to be determining whether the one you buy is real or fake. I was trying to get some feedback from those who may have used the versions to see if the "difference" is really that much or whether it only matters to the top players who are trying to get every last bit of performance from their equipment.

Thanks!

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LTT

Paddles
---------
Primary: Sanwei Fextra, Sanwei Target National on FH, Palio AK47 red on BH
Backup: Sanwei M8 Junior, Gambler Burst on FH, Stiga Mantra M on BH
Motto: Always Learnin'


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2019, 08:29 
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learninTT wrote:
iskandar taib wrote:
learninTT wrote:
Thank you for the recon recommendation. Hurricane 3 provincial comes with yellow and blue sponge. What is the difference between them? The blue sponge version is much more expensive.


The blue sponge has magical properties. :lol: That's why the Chinese National Team doesn't use the orange sponge. By the way, try to find red sheets with blue sponge.. those are supposedly the most magical (maybe because they don't exist..).. :lol:

Iskandar

:lol: :lol: You can always rely on Iskandar to bring some levity to the situation. :lol: :lol:

From what I have read online, including on Coach EmRatThich's site (https://pingsunday.com/dhs-hurricane-3- ... rricane%27), the blue sponge is harder and faster. The trick seems to be determining whether the one you buy is real or fake. I was trying to get some feedback from those who may have used the versions to see if the "difference" is really that much or whether it only matters to the top players who are trying to get every last bit of performance from their equipment.

Thanks!


And now try to convince me guys that H3 national which is designed for player with powerful pro technique is good for humble amateurs who is not putting on that much power. That national sponge must be hard as hell, H50?


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2019, 11:21 
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Not only that, apparently pros who use it also boost the heck out of it.

The REALLY high prices are for sheets that were purportedly made for some Chinese National Team player or another. These often come in generic/plain packaging because if you're makiing 20-30 sheets for some pro there's no need to put it in retail packaging. You just hand them a stack of sheets in a box. People will pay astronomical prices for these, hence all the fakes. The "National Team" rubbers in the white packets you find on legitimate vendor sites like Eacheng are just DHS's attempt to cash in on this. Who knows what that stuff really is and who among the pros actually uses it.

Why do some of these come with orange sponge? Because some of them are red sheets. You can't put blue sponge behind a red H3 topsheet (though it might work for more opaque ones like Ckylin or AK47) - the rubber turns purple. Who knows if this orange sponge is equivalent to the blue?

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2019, 00:24 
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iskandar taib wrote:
Why do some of these come with orange sponge? Because some of them are red sheets. You can't put blue sponge behind a red H3 topsheet (though it might work for more opaque ones like Ckylin or AK47) - the rubber turns purple. Who knows if this orange sponge is equivalent to the blue?

Iskandar


It's not only the red sheets that come with an orange sponge if you look at this link on Aliexpress

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/204238711 ... 4043339513

Even black ones come with orange sponge or blue sponge, hence my question. The package picture doesn't say anything about it being "provincial" version so I don't even know if this is the regular one being sold with a markup.

Thanks!

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LTT

Paddles
---------
Primary: Sanwei Fextra, Sanwei Target National on FH, Palio AK47 red on BH
Backup: Sanwei M8 Junior, Gambler Burst on FH, Stiga Mantra M on BH
Motto: Always Learnin'


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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2019, 04:16 
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You mean here?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Genuine ... 51351.html

The link you sent was meant for phones, doesn't work well on computers for some reason.

Yeah, the blue sponge ("#22") is the "good" stuff, and you only find it on Provincial and National grade black sheets. You NEVER find it on ANY red sheets, and never on retail grade sheets. Whether it's all that much better than the orange stuff, I have my doubts - the fact that you can buy Provincial and National sheets with orange sponge ("#20") tells me the orange sponge can't be that inferior (though it might be subtly different). The blue sponge sheets here cost $10 extra ($40 instead of $30) and I'll betcha it's a gimmick - since you ONLY find the blue sponge on National and Provincial sheets, it's GOT to be better, therefore people will pay more for it. Maybe it is better, I mean, so many people can't be wrong ( :lol: ) but here's a challenge - buy two sheets, both black, same sponge thickness and hardness, mount them on the same blade, and tell us if you (or your club mates) can tell the difference (cover up the sponge with wide edge tape if necessary).

The "white label" National sheets are here:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DHS-Ori ... 34108.html

"Ma Long" version.. :lol:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DHS-Hur ... 72128.html

This really isn't that expensive ($85 for the Ma Long version). I don't think it's actually made for Ma Long - why would Ma Long need the anti-fake hologram? :lol:

Here's one of the web sites that claims to sell "personal rubbers":

https://www.prott.vip/

"Personal" rubbers:

https://www.prott.vip/Product-List.aspx?producttype=51

THIS seems to be some new sort of DHS packaging:

https://www.prott.vip/Product-Details.a ... ode=starH3

Wow... "Personal rubbers" from official DHS channels - signed, even.

They even have "National" T64! :lol:

https://www.prott.vip/Product-Details.a ... ode=ProT64

And that "National" version of .. hmm.. It's FX-P. I've come across MX-P in the same packaging.

https://www.prott.vip/Product-Details.a ... =EVOLUTION

Whether or not you believe any or all of this, though... :lol:

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2019, 05:30 
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learninTT wrote:


And now try to convince me guys that H3 national which is designed for player with powerful pro technique is good for humble amateurs who is not putting on that much power. That national sponge must be hard as hell, H50?


https://www.prott.vip/Product-Details.a ... ode=starH3
https://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?id=586473103558

H41.5 H42 H37

Be happy.


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