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 Post subject: Simplified Hardbat Rules
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012, 09:22 
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Dear All

I am interested in playing hardbat and wanted to get the rules, etc., right so I know what I'm supposed to be doing along with everyone else.

I like to keep things simple but thorough so I created the attached 1-page file.

This is a PDF so all of you can see it, not just those who paid to use Word.

I would be very grateful if people could give whatever constructive criticism they think is appropriate.

I just want to make sure that my file is accurate and good enough to use when playing other people.

Thanks,

Paul.


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Table Tennis Hardbat Rules.pdf [66.71 KiB]
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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012, 17:37 
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RALLIES
Second paragraph, "... must bounce at least once anywhere in the servers court, ..."
I think the "at least" is not necessary, and potentially confusing. Implications are sufficiently clarified in the scoring section, but for a "simplified rules" sheet I'd omit those two words.

SCORING
The last bullet point mentions the "free hand" but I can't find any definition of "free hand" in the rules. I am not sure that it is obvious to everyone.

Also, a couple of rules surprised me: no stomping and no strokes with bat edge. Are those universally valid for hardbat competitions?

Nice section on best practices. You did a good job getting the ruleset onto a single page, with some useful and interesting additional info.

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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012, 17:42 
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Yes I thought it was quite good too, but hopefully some of our hardbat specialist here can offer some more comments.

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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012, 21:00 
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keme wrote:
RALLIES
Second paragraph, "... must bounce at least once anywhere in the servers court, ..."
I think the "at least" is not necessary, and potentially confusing. Implications are sufficiently clarified in the scoring section, but for a "simplified rules" sheet I'd omit those two words.

SCORING
The last bullet point mentions the "free hand" but I can't find any definition of "free hand" in the rules. I am not sure that it is obvious to everyone.

Also, a couple of rules surprised me: no stomping and no strokes with bat edge. Are those universally valid for hardbat competitions?

Nice section on best practices. You did a good job getting the ruleset onto a single page, with some useful and interesting additional info.


Dear keme,

Thanks for your help. It is much appreciated.

RALLIES - Sounds reasonable. I think this is my turn of phrase revealing itself. I have deleted the two words.

SCORING - Free Hand: I think the meaning of this would be clear to most people within the context of the text. However, seeing as the previous line ended being very long, I have amended both lines to read:

 touches the ball with any part of their body or clothes, except any part of their hand carrying the bat.
 touches the table or the net with any part of their free hand, not carrying the bat.

No Strokes With Bat Edge: USATT rule 2.10.1.7 "if the opponent strikes the ball with a side of the racket blade whose surface does not comply with the requirements of 2.4.3, 2.4.4 and 2.4.5". USATT rule 2.4.3 "2.4.3 A side of the blade used for striking the ball shall be covered with either ordinary pimpled rubber, with pimples outwards having a total thickness including adhesive of not more than 2mm, or sandwich rubber, with pimples inwards or outwards, having a total thickness including adhesive of not more than 4mm."

I would read this to mean that you cannot deliberately hit the ball with a part of the bat not covered by rubber. The edge of the blade is not covered in rubber and so cannot be deliberately used to hit the ball. However, the line seems a little picky in retrospect, for something that is unlikely to ever happen, so I have deleted it in order to save space.

No Foot Stomping: Although not specifically mentioned in section 3.5.2 on Misbehavior, I define Foot Stomping as a deliberate action designed to take advantage of a gymnasium floor to intimidate their opponent, NOT because the floor and acoustics were responsible for making noises naturally louder. Foot stomping is not evidence of superior skill, but it is unnecessary bullying. I would also add that it is cheating by virtue of gamesmanship. Examples I would site in other sports are John McEnroe's famous bad temper in Tennis and now Tennis Players grunting at their opponent with every shot. Or the professional foul or dive and attempting to manipulate the referee in football. It is bad sportsmanship of the worst sort because it is so insidious.

My genuine apologies to the foot stompers out there, and without wanting to ignite an argument over foot-stomping, every example I have seen required deliberate effort and was no accident. They were also timed to coincide with EVERY serve by a player or when making a significant shot that might have led to winning a point. I would politely ask someone to stop if they began foot stomping while we were playing. I would also refuse to play with them any further if they persisted. I understand that some people use Foot Stomping in competition, but if such bad attitudes and activities are not opposed then some bright spark might go on to start manipulate the Let rules or maybe even the Expedite System.


Thanks for the note of approval. I have really spent a lot of effort doing this and it required a lot of my skills in Word to get it all to fit on the one page.

Ta,

Paul.


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012, 07:36 
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The rules you have posted are nice but NOT for the United States. The Official Hardbat rules for the United States are posted on the USATT website, and on www.hardbat.com.

CHEERS!

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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012, 01:31 
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gnopgnipster wrote:
The rules you have posted are nice but NOT for the United States. The Official Hardbat rules for the United States are posted on the USATT website, and on http://www.hardbat.com.

CHEERS!


Dear gnopgnipster

Umm... Ok. No problem.

That didn't come across as way too heavy and intense, did it. Maybe you suffered in translation, or I've done something wrong that I don't know about yet, but you initially made me feel like I should apologise for offending the entire United States, which was wrong of you. I actually feel a bit shocked reading the abrupt tone of your response. I don't usually respond to flamers and trolls, I just block them, but I don't like it when the self-appointed seek to control the way others have fun. I don't think that either Hardbat or USATT need feel the least bit threatened by a single page of A4 research written by a beginner.

Put it this way - if ever I play in a USATT tournanent, I will certainly and rightfully play by their rules. But for now I am working out what those rules are and having fun while I am doing so. The USATT rules are 11 pages long and read like tax law. They are filled with things that are mostly completely irrelevant to me and people like me, such as match officials and sponsors. I am fairly literate, but obviously misunderstood a few things that writing this document has corrected. I already spoke to the Hardbat people and they were really helpful, giving me about a page of advice. Keme's response was really helpful too and showed me some of the places I was going wrong. I am really grateful to both the Hardbat people and Keme for their help. Maybe I might be able to return the favour to someone else in the future.

The Hardbat people told me all about the women champions, including Angelica Rozeanu who is frankly amazing to watch. I wish I could play half that well. I enjoy Hardbat, because normal games feel too short. I also like using the simpler bats. They feel and sound very nostalgic. I haven't felt this excited about a sport since I left school. I am very enthusiastic about Table Tennis and Hardbat, mostly because I am enjoying playing it with a few other people who are far better than me. I even managed to buy some old-style 38mm balls from somewhere, but haven't had the opportunity to use them in a match. They do play different in practice, though.

I would suggest that I am unlikely ever to compete in a tournament, but I am trying really hard to learn and improve. I fully expect to only ever be an "also ran" at Table Tennis but I don't see this as sufficient reason not to enjoy the game as much as anyone else. I have been playing for less than six months, I made my own really good scoreboard the other week out of bits and pieces, and I have spent 30 minutes minimum every day this week alone keeping the ball in the air with my new Hardbat. So far my record is 99 continuous hits, the last ball accidentally hitting me on the shoulder. Not bad for someone who had never played before late last year. So far I haven't won a single match, but I have won a number of games. I also came very close in winning a few other games. Every one of these things is what I regard as a personal success because I really tried.

For the record, I am using the most basic Hardbat I could find. It is a Tees Sport Pimpled Out Table Tennis Bat, priced at £1.80. It feels like it has plenty of spirit and play inside and it is the best bat ever, unless I want to use my Stiga Sting instead. I am sure that you are using bats that are a hundred times better than mine, but they are your bats and not mine. I like mine just fine, just as much as the one page of rules I keep in my pocket to read through and memorise when the opportunity presents itself.

I will continue to enjoy this sport on my terms and won't allow my feelings to be the least bit hurt by such a blunt and unnecessary response.


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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012, 01:42 
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MrMarlow,
Here are your own words;

"I would be very grateful if people could give whatever constructive criticism they think is appropriate.

I just want to make sure that my file is accurate and good enough to use when playing other people."

Gnopgnipster did exactly that. Since he is a hardbat specialist, he thought he could help by supplying the actual rules. Sorry you feel he attacked you, I do not see that. I see someone trying to supply "accurate" information. You can play with any rules you like with your friends but you asked for "accurate" information. Now you have it. :)


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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012, 04:46 
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The title of this thread, "Simplified Hardbat Rules," has an air of officialness particularly since it is on a site dedicated to hardbat. Many people visit this site and when they see rules posted claiming something that they are not, well that is misleading. They are not Hardbat Rules, they are your rules. Please make that clear.

Nowhere did I ask for an apology in my previous post, I just provided you with a source of hardbat rules for the United States so you could use them in your project. Furthermore if you look up Hardbat France you will see they also have hardbat rules posted, and so does Germany, and UK.

My original post was brief and to the point. I did not mislead anyone, I provided you with the best information available for your project, as does this post, and I am sorry you blew your top. However your uninformed reply to my original post is an unwarranted flame.

I hope you continue to enjoy hardbat and promote it. However, stick to the official rules. If you don't like them let me know and why, and I will take it up with the rest of the USATT Hardbat Committee. (BTW, everyone of the rules posted on the USATT website is there for a reason)

CHEERS!

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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012, 22:54 
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I think MrMarlow is simply saying the full rule set is too long and uses too official language for the average or new players to understand, so a more simplified set of rules that just covers the basics in plain language can be quite useful, and if anyone wishes to read the full rules, they can always consult the official rules of the country they're in.

I can see where he's coming from. I bet most people at any club have never read the official rules, but had them explained by other people or a coach or official. A simplified version of the most basic rules on a single page can be useful to explain the basics, particularly to new people.

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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2012, 17:37 
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+1 @ haggisv

@gnopgnipster
Simplified rules help to introduce would-be players to hardbat. Condensing the info to one page means that something has to be omitted, but also makes it much more accessible. As an umpire's guideline for official tournaments it is useless. However, as a measure to introduce this game, it's better to give a short general impression (that most people would read) with basics and some info on how the game differs from "regular" TT, instead of providing the full ruleset (exact info, which nobody in the target audience would take the time to read through). Detailing best practises is a good helper to get newbies started, and listing the top players works as motivation.

@MrMarlow
Can't see that gnopgnipster's first post was in any way condescending or otherwise offensive. Being a dedicated hardbat player and organiser (if I read the info right), he rightfully sees the need to emphasize the distinction between official and "recreational" rulesets. I can see that raising issues towards your own work (which you consider to be a thorough job) can be taken offensive, but you may want to reconsider.

For completeness (if available space can be found or made on the sheet), the document probably should have a line saying something like:
These are simplified rules for unofficial play. For full tournament rules, see <URL>.
That would largely eliminate the issue that gnopgnipster raised.

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Rating in the middle/low range in the region.
Moderating the LP Attacking subforum in the Technique section.


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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2012, 18:34 
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Listing a Country in a profile could help, as this may lead to more relevant help
(sorry if in the PDF ,which I can't open then all good)

I wonder how many Countries have hard bat rules?

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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2012, 09:05 
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keme wrote:
+1 @ haggisv

@gnopgnipster
Simplified rules help to introduce would-be players to hardbat. Condensing the info to one page means that something has to be omitted, but also makes it much more accessible. As an umpire's guideline for official tournaments it is useless. However, as a measure to introduce this game, it's better to give a short general impression (that most people would read) with basics and some info on how the game differs from "regular" TT, instead of providing the full ruleset (exact info, which nobody in the target audience would take the time to read through). Detailing best practises is a good helper to get newbies started, and listing the top players works as motivation.

@MrMarlow
Can't see that gnopgnipster's first post was in any way condescending or otherwise offensive. Being a dedicated hardbat player and organiser (if I read the info right), he rightfully sees the need to emphasize the distinction between official and "recreational" rulesets. I can see that raising issues towards your own work (which you consider to be a thorough job) can be taken offensive, but you may want to reconsider.

For completeness (if available space can be found or made on the sheet), the document probably should have a line saying something like:
These are simplified rules for unofficial play. For full tournament rules, see <URL>.
That would largely eliminate the issue that gnopgnipster raised.

Your points are excelent. The rules for hardbat are already there. An unofficial abreviated form should be the same minus whatever they should want to leave out. I would leave the language the same. It has been forged after many incidents and arguments at the table.

A couple of years ago we formally added the classic expedite rule to the USA rules. Nobody thought much of it because it was never needed. The first tournament it was implemented, two veteran players started pushing and hacking and the rule had to be applied. Otherwise we would still be waiting for the match to be over. I think this is an argument for keeping the rules complete. An abreviated version could cause kaos even in a garage competition, especially if a situation arises that that is not in the abreviated rules. if so does one invent new rules? Then it is no longer hardbat...

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