OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
Live Table Tennis Videos Table Tennis News Live OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 30 Mar 2017, 00:40


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 08:04 
Offline
Dark Knight
Dark Knight
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2006, 12:34
Posts: 31049
Location: Adelaide, AU
Has thanked: 1336 times
Been thanked: 813 times
Blade: Trinity Carbon
FH: Victas VS > 401
BH: Dornenglanz OX
Do you think the old hardbat equipment and style could still be competitive against the modern style and equipment?

_________________
OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Table Tennis Reviews / Articles | Table Guide | Robot Guide | Re-Impact Blades
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide | Novel way to glue OX pips


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 08:11 
Offline
Secret Agent Double OX
Secret Agent Double OX
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2007, 06:49
Posts: 10582
Location: USA
Has thanked: 283 times
Been thanked: 365 times
Blade: Tibhar CO-S-3
FH: Dr. Neubauer Leopard
BH: D.TecS SPEZIAL OX
Up to about the 2000 range, yes. After that, modern rubbers have too much of a technology advantage.

_________________



The MNNB Blog has had some pretty amazing stuff lately. Just click this text to check it out.
| My OOAK Interview
Table Tennis Video Links: itTV | laola1.tv | ttbl | fftt | Challenger Series | mnnb-tv

Coach Li: Kill the game against long pimps! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAHNaiIhnWM


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 08:43 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 13:20
Posts: 304
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 32 times
Hardbat and style can cause an upset up to a certain high level of play. But I think (and as MNNB also says) at higher levels modern equipment just excels.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 10:28 
Offline
The EJ's Boogyman
The EJ's Boogyman
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010, 12:20
Posts: 2460
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 124 times
A chopper of some class can play at a reasonable level using a hardbat but there is a ceiling. Im pretty sure that when Pinkewich first played for Australia in the 60s he used a Barna bat (later he went on to use inverted both sides and then a combo bat). I have a vague recollection of seeing a film of him play then and he was darned good. When young, fit and in training, he would almost never make an unforced error and to win a point you would have to be able to hit fairly powerfully to get through him. It's hard to be accurate but I suspect he would have been able to at least beat many current day 2400 players (principally those that cannot hit too powerfully).

As teenagers, friends and I would frequently play with hardbats, and in my 20s I played in a few hardbat events (the Victorian open used to have a hardbat singles). I'm guessing back then I could probably play at a level somewhere in the low 2100s.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 12:14 
Offline
Freak of Nature!
Freak of Nature!
User avatar

Joined: 04 Jun 2010, 04:46
Posts: 2431
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 76 times
There's a 75 year old in Victoria rated 1500, 2250us? He still uses hard bat. Arguably he can't quite play at that level right now but he was only a few years ago and hes still equal in level to me as I've play him recently and only just beat him. He has won the Australian title for his age and maybe many times? All with his hard bat.

We have another guy of similar age locally of a similar level who doesn't use hard bat now but did in the past and has represented Victoria many times.

Anyway us2000 is nothing for the hardbat masters of their time, I bet given youth again all those guys could play around us2400 with hard bat against modern rubber and modern players.

_________________
Donic defplay senso
Haifu whale soft (grips-euro)
Nittaku pimplemini 1.0mm


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 13:06 
Offline
The EJ's Boogyman
The EJ's Boogyman
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010, 12:20
Posts: 2460
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 124 times
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you foam but I think only a select few could play at a 2400 standard with a hard bat in their youth and they would have to be around the class of a Pinkewich. If the 75 year old you are talking about is CDB then he was actually never a high level player in his younger days and I don't think was ever near 2250. He has always been extremely fit though and has really shined as a Vet. MW (Vic1760s) is a similar but stronger example. He's a very solid player who, at his best, may have been 2250ish.

Both of these guys are of course decent players (and great guys!) but they could never compete against open class strong loopers as somelike like Pinkewich could. They have blossomed in the Vets because there they can't get powered off there. Also, remember that the Vic rating system can be heavily biased in favour of some of those who tend to play only in Vet events.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 13:52 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 02 Mar 2010, 19:16
Posts: 1400
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 62 times
It's extremely difficult for hardbat players to beat high-level modern loopers consistently. For a year I held the only high-level weekly hardbat round robin tournaments in California, so my interest in developing hardbat competition in our area was very high. Our highest rated hardbat player was Loc Ngo at about 2350 (he was our 2006 U.S. National Hardbat Champion), but our best hardbat player was Raymond Wang, son of coach Peter Wang (Peter was No. 1 in his Chinese province and a former Chinese national top-40 player.) In addition to winning 99% of ALL my hardbat round robin tournaments, Raymond also actively participated in all my Open round robins and regularly beat 2250-2350 modern loopers. However, all his wins against high-level loopers were extremely grueling long affairs. He is an excellent chopper with great footwork, and great fh and bh attacks. I can only imagine the athleticism needed to play hardbat at an even higher level than him. I would say a hardbat player who can achieve a 2500+ rating against modern attackers would be absolutely world-class.


Last edited by roundrobin on 02 Jan 2013, 15:56, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 15:32 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 20:17
Posts: 277
Location: USA
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 12 times
Out of curiosity, what blade and hardbat rubbers does Raymond Wang play with? I am thinking about getting a hardbat assembled and would like to get a combo that chops really well but also allows a good attack. What would you suggest?

_________________
Blade: Victas Koji Matsushita ST
FH: Xiom Vega Japan 2.0mm
BH: TSP P1-R 1.0mm
USATT Rating: 2013


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 15:39 
Offline
Freak of Nature!
Freak of Nature!
User avatar

Joined: 04 Jun 2010, 04:46
Posts: 2431
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 76 times
I was talking about p Fischer, I'm not sure how good he was as a youth but I'm assuming very good considering he's still handy now, he's out of Europe, Germany maybe?. I'd guess pinkewich would have been a stronger hard bat player but then again he's much younger so its hard to say. P Fischer told me for most of his life he used the barna bat. P humphries a classical defender also played hard bat early on, I'm not sure if he won country week with hard bat or inverted but he did play the Vic vets team for something like 20 years straight, and went undefeteated on this side of the state for 30 years I believe. Two years ago those two actually played a veeeeeery long match with humphries winning, first time he's won that matchup in decades and decades of trying, he was very happy!. There's still plenty of class in the strokes of both those guys, I wish I could chop like that. Even now against Fischer I can't over power him, I have to play patient and smart to win that match, loops become almost irrelevant because he's happy to send 10 of my best back in row and I can't keep that up over best of 7.

Anyway I still think the very best hard bat players from the old days could go 2400 in the modern era.

_________________
Donic defplay senso
Haifu whale soft (grips-euro)
Nittaku pimplemini 1.0mm


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 15:54 
Offline
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 02 Mar 2010, 19:16
Posts: 1400
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 62 times
ckhirnigs113 wrote:
Out of curiosity, what blade and hardbat rubbers does Raymond Wang play with? I am thinking about getting a hardbat assembled and would like to get a combo that chops really well but also allows a good attack. What would you suggest?


He uses the same hardbat combo as mine: Donic Defplay Senso FL and Buterfly Orthodox on both sides.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 16:26 
Offline
The EJ's Boogyman
The EJ's Boogyman
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010, 12:20
Posts: 2460
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 124 times
From memory PF used to play about A3 or A4 ish in the 70s (in those days there was one centralized comp) and was never a high rated player. I also remember PH and think he was probably around the same standard. Again, such players are suited to the softer hitting vets game and do/did very well.

I agree that the very best hardbat players could be 2400 in todays times but it would have to be those like Pinkewich who grew up in an inverted era. Pre-inverted guys would pretty much have to start all over again.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 17:25 
Offline
Freak of Nature!
Freak of Nature!
User avatar

Joined: 04 Jun 2010, 04:46
Posts: 2431
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 76 times
Where's a3 compared to modern points or divisions?. I guess the overall standard was higher than it is now. My father was about my level I think and he only ever played d grade at country week where I'm playing b2 in the modern day

_________________
Donic defplay senso
Haifu whale soft (grips-euro)
Nittaku pimplemini 1.0mm


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013, 18:04 
Offline
The EJ's Boogyman
The EJ's Boogyman
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010, 12:20
Posts: 2460
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 124 times
Yes, the standard was much stronger then. There were 3 Comps a year: Winter, Spring and Northern. Winter was the strongest with everyone playing. Thus, A1 consisted roughly of the top 24 players in the state; A2 was roughly 25-48, A3 roughly 49-72 etc. The top 4 or so players often didn't play Spring or Northern. There were far more players then (I think around 1500 played Winter pennant - the grades went down to about F6) and thus greater depth. Also, Australia was ranked 12 in the world in those days.

To give you an example of the difference in stregth and depth consider players like Peter Sheedy and Raymond Rozen. PS was around A3/low-A2 circa 1976 and a few months back was ranked about 42 in Vic...36 years later! From memory I think RR was around A4 ish then and he is ranked 74 today. There are quite a number of similar examples.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013, 22:59 
Offline
The EJ's Boogyman
The EJ's Boogyman
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010, 12:20
Posts: 2460
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 124 times
I bumped into an old friend tonight. He told me he has film of Pinkewich from 1968 playing hardbat for Australia. He is going to bring a DVD of it next week. I will upload it when I get a chance - should make for very interesting viewing.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013, 23:08 
Offline
Dark Knight
Dark Knight
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2006, 12:34
Posts: 31049
Location: Adelaide, AU
Has thanked: 1336 times
Been thanked: 813 times
Blade: Trinity Carbon
FH: Victas VS > 401
BH: Dornenglanz OX
carbonman wrote:
I bumped into an old friend tonight. He told me he has film of Pinkewich from 1968 playing hardbat for Australia. He is going to bring a DVD of it next week. I will upload it when I get a chance - should make for very interesting viewing.

That would be awesome! :clap: :clap: :clap:

_________________
OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Table Tennis Reviews / Articles | Table Guide | Robot Guide | Re-Impact Blades
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide | Novel way to glue OX pips


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next




All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2012 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group




Don't forget to 'LIKE' our forum on Facebook if you enjoy the content: