OOAK Table Tennis Forum :: USATT is now bullying hardbat players.

So when I was a permanent hardbat player,

Francis wrote:

So when I was a permanent hardbat player,

You're not a permanent hardbatter anymore? I'm shocked!

To me it reads that they are just trying to comply/fall in line with whatever rules the ITTF are using. Not so much take a swipe at hardbat players.

Actually the USATT Hardbat Advisory Committee voted in favor of the change...

gnopgnipster wrote:

Actually the USATT Hardbat Advisory Committee voted in favor of the change...

What I posted earlier is directly from Hardbat.com:

...The Hardbat Committee opposed this decision, but was not consulted on the matter...

From what I've used myself, the ITTF-approved hardbat rubbers are noticeably spinner than the classic types, which I strongly prefer. Yasaka A-1 and Butterfly Orthodox were too spinny, IMO, to behave like traditional hardbats. Barna and Hock rubbers, and therefore a big part of the legacy of our sport, are now out of the picture for normal events. Very few places have 'hardbat' events on top of normal tournaments.

Valor Premier is one of the rubbers on my radar now, since I was looking forward to playing in the state championships this December, but I'm not really in a position to purchase new stuff at the moment with college and family dues. If the ITTF-approved version is the same as the old version, then I don't see a problem with it; based on a naked-eye appraisal, I think it's from the same mold as ATP Leland Era.

Valor Premier ITTF is the same as the older non-ITTF version

Can you send me the link to hardbat.com were you saw the above-mentioned story. Thanks

Hardbat Use in Regular (Sponge) Events

Rule #3.2.1.3.2 that allowed legal hardbats to also be legal in USATT rated events for the past 10+ years was repealed in December 2012. That means if you want to use a hardbat in normal USATT rated (i.e. "sponge") events, you must construct it out of ITTF legal rubbers, and it must be red/black.
If this rule change affects you adversely, please voice your concern to the USATT.

The rule change does not affect hardbat events.

Author:	abdulmuhsee [ 10 Nov 2013, 13:44 ]
Post subject:	USATT is now bullying hardbat players.
So I happened to notice this a few minutes earlier this evening: Rule #3.2.1.3.2 that allowed legal hardbats to also be legal in USATT rated events for the past 10+ years was repealed in December 2012. That means if you want to use a hardbat in normal USATT rated (i.e. "sponge") events, you must construct it out of ITTF legal rubbers, and it must be red/black. If this rule change affects you adversely, please voice your concern to the USATT. The Hardbat Committee opposed this decision, but was not consulted on the matter. I've been using "ATP Leland Era" rubber since my first rated tournament and bought a backup quantity so I wouldn't run out. Since it is a legal hardbat rubber, it was legal to use in regular USATT events. Now I'm essentially stuck with a rubber which I've gotten used to over several years and can no longer use. I've emailed them simply to tell them I'm now forced to purchase and become familiar with all new equipment due to them repealing this rule, and that they have only succeeded in hurting classic table tennis players with their decision, but we all know I'll be lucky to even get a response.

Author:	hookshot [ 10 Nov 2013, 14:30 ]
Post subject:	Re: USATT is now bullying hardbat players.
I would like to hear the reason, logic? behind the decision. Somebody on the committy get beaten by a hardbat?

Author:	abdulmuhsee [ 10 Nov 2013, 15:45 ]
Post subject:	Re: USATT is now bullying hardbat players.
Here's how I'd like to think that meeting went: These hardbat guys are just destroying* all our top players! What can we do?* Ban it! Ban it in the fires of Gehenna! But here's how it most likely went: Hey, wanna mess with some random people for no good reason? You had me at people!

Author:	Francis [ 10 Nov 2013, 21:32 ]
Post subject:	Re: USATT is now bullying hardbat players.
In France, if you want to play in sponge events with a hardbat, the rubbers must be ITTF authorized, red on one side and black on the other. So when I was a permanent hardbat player, I had 2 rubbers combinations : one for hardbat events (with 2 Valor Premier rubbers), and one for sponge events (with Yasaka Cobalt on FH and 729 Dr Evil on BH). That was the better solution I found, so that I could use a bat with 2 different rubbers in sponge events.

Author:	mynamenotbob [ 10 Nov 2013, 21:52 ]
Post subject:	Re: USATT is now bullying hardbat players.
Francis wrote: So when I was a permanent hardbat player, You're not a permanent hardbatter anymore? I'm shocked!

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Author:	Francis [ 10 Nov 2013, 22:50 ]
Post subject:	Re: USATT is now bullying hardbat players.
mynamenotbob wrote: Francis wrote: So when I was a permanent hardbat player, You're not a permanent hardbatter anymore? I'm shocked! No, sorry. I put a 1.5 mm sponge Kokutaku 119 (short pimples) on BH, and I kept a hard rubber on BH : Dr Neubauer Terminator.

Author:	foam [ 10 Nov 2013, 23:11 ]
Post subject:	Re: USATT is now bullying hardbat players.
Non ITTF hardhat rubbers generally don't meet the current aspect ratio rules do they?. I think the aspect ratio rules are far to strict to encourage advancement of the sport myself. Still no matter how weird the ITTF may be. All counties and all clubs follow the ITTF rules so I'm more surprised they were allowed in competition in the US than them being banned. They were never legal anywhere else in the world.

Author:	gnopgnipster [ 10 Nov 2013, 23:29 ]
Post subject:	Re: USATT is now bullying hardbat players.
Actually the USATT Hardbat Advisory Committee voted in favor of the change. However, there were some behind the scenes politics by USATT that some members of the USATT H.A.C.were not happy with. The change was immediate. Normally when the USATT HAC bans a rubber a period of time is given to allow for people to get rid of their "illegal" supplies and get new legal ones. The rule change does not affect Hardbat tournaments/events in the US. However, if you want to use a Hardbat in USATT sponge events it must now comply with ITTF rules. There are plenty of ITTF rubbers that are legal for both Hardbat and sponge events.

Author:	apophis [ 10 Nov 2013, 23:43 ]
Post subject:	Re: USATT is now bullying hardbat players.
To me it reads that they are just trying to comply/fall in line with whatever rules the ITTF are using. Not so much take a swipe at hardbat players.

Author:	gnopgnipster [ 10 Nov 2013, 23:53 ]
Post subject:	Re: USATT is now bullying hardbat players.
apophis wrote: To me it reads that they are just trying to comply/fall in line with whatever rules the ITTF are using. Not so much take a swipe at hardbat players. That is one reason. There was cheating being reported to the Rules Committee were players in sponge events who were using Hardbats were claiming the hardbats were legal when in fact the rubbers may not have been. (Some rubbers that are hardbat legal and do not have a label were allegedly being substituted with illegal ones and used in sponge events)

Author:	Der_Echte [ 11 Nov 2013, 01:18 ]
Post subject:	Re: USATT is now bullying hardbat players.
Oh the horror !!! A RINGER slipped a slippery or overly sticky Short Pips OX rubber on FH and just had an unfair advantage !!! Gotta wipe 'em out haha. Really? That isn't even as close as the advantage one gets from a decent tune job over equal players, one tunes, one doesn't. Did some old fogey with one of these rubbers wipe out one of the big-time coach's top prodigy player 3-2 at the clutch in a sanction USATT match ??? Wow. This is almost like Police trying to issue tickets for violations of clothing infractions instead of capturing gangsters and rapists.

Author:	abdulmuhsee [ 11 Nov 2013, 05:32 ]
Post subject:	Re: USATT is now bullying hardbat players.
gnopgnipster wrote: Actually the USATT Hardbat Advisory Committee voted in favor of the change... What I posted earlier is directly from Hardbat.com: ...The Hardbat Committee opposed this decision, but was not consulted on the matter... From what I've used myself, the ITTF-approved hardbat rubbers are noticeably spinner than the classic types, which I strongly prefer. Yasaka A-1 and Butterfly Orthodox were too spinny, IMO, to behave like traditional hardbats. Barna and Hock rubbers, and therefore a big part of the legacy of our sport, are now out of the picture for normal events. Very few places have 'hardbat' events on top of normal tournaments. Valor Premier is one of the rubbers on my radar now, since I was looking forward to playing in the state championships this December, but I'm not really in a position to purchase new stuff at the moment with college and family dues. If the ITTF-approved version is the same as the old version, then I don't see a problem with it; based on a naked-eye appraisal, I think it's from the same mold as ATP Leland Era.

Author:	gnopgnipster [ 13 Nov 2013, 09:35 ]
Post subject:	Re: USATT is now bullying hardbat players.
abdulmuhsee wrote: gnopgnipster wrote: Actually the USATT Hardbat Advisory Committee voted in favor of the change... What I posted earlier is directly from Hardbat.com: ...The Hardbat Committee opposed this decision, but was not consulted on the matter... From what I've used myself, the ITTF-approved hardbat rubbers are noticeably spinner than the classic types, which I strongly prefer. Yasaka A-1 and Butterfly Orthodox were too spinny, IMO, to behave like traditional hardbats. Barna and Hock rubbers, and therefore a big part of the legacy of our sport, are now out of the picture for normal events. Very few places have 'hardbat' events on top of normal tournaments. Valor Premier is one of the rubbers on my radar now, since I was looking forward to playing in the state championships this December, but I'm not really in a position to purchase new stuff at the moment with college and family dues. If the ITTF-approved version is the same as the old version, then I don't see a problem with it; based on a naked-eye appraisal, I think it's from the same mold as ATP Leland Era. Valor Premier ITTF is the same as the older non-ITTF version Can you send me the link to hardbat.com were you saw the above-mentioned story. Thanks

Author:	abdulmuhsee [ 13 Nov 2013, 12:38 ]
Post subject:	Re: USATT is now bullying hardbat players.
gnopgnipster wrote: Valor Premier ITTF is the same as the older non-ITTF version Can you send me the link to hardbat.com were you saw the above-mentioned story. Thanks http://www.hardbat.com/hardbat.html Then click 'rules'. I was unaware that you were now the head of the hardbat advisory committee, but it appears there could not have possibly been consensus. Perhaps you'll now pressure hardbat.com to take down the story stating that the committee opposed the decision. Knowing that you were personally in favor of banning classic hardbat rubbers from normal tournament play makes me wonder what your interests are in regards to your position. To promote hardbat by banning the most classic rubbers in tournaments? But you don't play with a hardbat racket in normal competition, so I suppose you wouldn't understand the position of someone who does. That's pretty disappointing when the person supposed to be looking out for hardbat players votes in favor of decisions made against them, and I don't want to hear the "buy a new, ITTF rubber!" line as justification.

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Author:	mynamenotbob [ 14 Nov 2013, 10:44 ]
Post subject:	Re: USATT is now bullying hardbat players.
Wait a minute! Abdulmuhsee, are you suggesting that it's a conflict of interest for an equipment manufacturer to head a Committee that impacts equipment decisions they may profit from? The ITTF has been allowing this for decades. In any event, it looks like spongers finally succeeded in getting rid of the "weird" effects from "unique" surfaces like Leyland, ATP Reisman, Barna and TSP Millitall found on classic bats. Of course, these "different" players are allowed to use these "unique" surfaces against each other in "different" hardbat only events. Just keep this "weird" stuff away from real table tennis please. By the way, the text on the hardbat.com site has been now been changed, reflecting the USATT Hardbat Committee's support of banning classic hardbat rubbers in regular USATT competition. Full-time hardbatters who are affected can complain to the USATT (good luck) or switch to Valor Premier, Dr. Evil, Andro Classic, etc. Quote: Hardbat Use in Regular (Sponge) Events Rule #3.2.1.3.2 that allowed legal hardbats to also be legal in USATT rated events for the past 10+ years was repealed in December 2012. That means if you want to use a hardbat in normal USATT rated (i.e. "sponge") events, you must construct it out of ITTF legal rubbers, and it must be red/black. If this rule change affects you adversely, please voice your concern to the USATT. The rule change does not affect hardbat events.