OOAK Table Tennis Forum

I was at a tourny about 3 weeks ago, and there was a huge group of canadian players that came down to play. So they were all chinese kinds that had amazing forhand loops and would beat almost everyone that they faced. My doubles partner decided to play hardbat against them (Yasaka Offensive, Dr.Evil both sides). (All the canadian players were rated "1200" but beats a lot of <1800 players). He was playing u-1550 so there were a ton of canadian players near the finals. He easily beat all them and went on to win the finals.

My question is, is the hardbat game really that effective against the modern topspin game? Or did he just get lucky? Change in pace that their used to? Change in spin?

thkz

If it really is, I might just make one myself in case i play little kids.

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Stiga Clipper FL- Haifu BW2 2.2- Hammond Pro Beta 2.1

Real good loopers can have a very hard time against hardbat unless they get to play against them in practice. Loopers can counter loops till the cows come home but take alot of the spin off and then they have problems. What does it, the incomming topspin is turned into your top going out with inverted. If there is less top comming in, you have less top going out. Only choice for them is to take some speed off or brush more. Their spin does not bother hardbat as much as inverted either.
I don't think it was luck.

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Shakehand, left handed.
Blade, Yinhe, W-1
Forhand, H-3 National
Backhand, Sriver FX Max

There's a couple of old hard bat guys in my club. Most guys that play them have a hard time. I've played one of them a few times with only one win against him. Nothing spectacular about their game, but its just not that easy to pass them, easy to make mistakes against them and their pace is unsettling.

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I think Hookshot is right - it most likely wasn't luck. If the hotshot looper sees only others of his kind, he has a hard time adjusting to the kind of hit he needs to make against those returns - the timing is too wierd for them if they never hit against Dr. Evil on a hardbat.

RTTE has about the best description for a large percentage of them - consistant players who don't miss and invite lower percentage shots.

Dwruck, Matthius, and Kees would definely want a say in this thread.

Plazza, good topic.

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Aurus Soft / Gambler GXL .6 sponge

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Interesting! Certainly food for thought. From what I interpret it seems the Canadian players were used to a "robot" game and played with little variation/tactics to combat different rhythms. It also sounds like they were most likely o have relied on good footwork and blasted forehands for a winner.

These two factors added together plus the frustration of not knowing what you're doing wrong make a lethal combination. I could imagine them pushing long then waiting for you to smash it, and with their good footwork, they'd already be 3 steps away from the table waiting to counterloop...which ironically leads to their defeat.

In the end, just because the opponent is not good at playing against the rubber, does not mean you have played well/competently with it. (actually my post sounds rather harsh when I re-read it, but since we're talking about your friend...I suppose I'm not treading on anyone's toes ). But I suppose truly strong hardbat players could be like strong anti players...however these are even harder to find than a classic defender these days.

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I'm not good enough with the hardbat to play against the inverted players, but mdjenders was before he switched back to inverted with long pips on the backhand. He was beating guys rated in the 1800s-1900s, and almost beat a guy in the 2000s playing that style. It really throws off the "robot" type two wing loopers to have everything blocked or smacked right back at them. It's definitely not luck at all.

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"The greatest teacher, failure is"
USATT Rating: 1725
Blade: Stiga Cybershape Carbon
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You are really just talking about players standards, rather than equipment here, regardless of their ratings.

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the covers blown, mission over

Darkhorse I'm not so sure about that. I think it may also be a case of styles as well as standards. Some people struggle more against left handers, defenders, pimples, hardbats than others. Sometimes it can be an advantage to play against people who are not as used to playing against your equipment as you are theirs. Although you've still got to be good enough to win.
I appreciate that at your level its likely to be the shots you can play as opposed to the equipment used but lower down it can help because it disrupts rythmn and a change of pace and spin can be disconcerting.

As regards hardbat against modern topspin I think once you get to certain level players are good against most equipment and styles and a hardbat is probably more limiting than helpful.

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Another one bites the dust.

i feel very confident in saying that when on my hardbat game, i could beat or give serious trouble to anyone under usatt 2000 rating (pretty good standard). hookshot went through some of the reasons, but for me, service return was the biggest advantage, coupled with a general ignorance of what a hardbat is capable of (Not just "no spin" like many think).

lots of forehand based loopers like to give the standard side/under to the bh. with my hardbat (hock with dr evil), i simply flicked these back with the spin continued off my rubber, giving the opponent back a nasty side topspin ball that was often misjudged completely. another strategy was serving short with underspin (a significant amount can be generated with the right serve stroke), when opponent pushed a heavy backspin back, i flicked a slow, deep backhand. again, continued spin produced severe, kicking topspin that was often missed. also, the flat hit vs. incoming topspin was effective. attacking vs. strong topspin is not possible sometimes with hardbat due to spin continuation (turns to underspin which tends to rise into back wall ), however when opponent is confused by the hardbat, they get tentative and hit slower, less spinny loops. counter hitting these with a flat, downward swing at the highest point produces skidding underspin that in most cases is unreturnable. finally, if you want to pound some long pip players or choppers, use a hardbat, and use it well. attacking vs. no spin fluff balls or heavy underspin is so easy. here's the secret.... hit the hell out of the ball, and repeat until you win. things like pips "effect" or spin variation just arent that important when you have something like hardbat.

these things worked for me to play against up to usatt 2000 level players. saying its all about standard is nonsense, because these are quite good players better than me that i cannot beat with more conventional rubbers. now if you are 2400 or something, then yes, a hardbat is pretty useless, but 2400 has no reason to read a thread on hardbat anyway. i did have a special knack for the hardbat with lots of reflex shots and strange strokes. a more seasoned inverted player would likely have strokes that cannot be changed to hardbat ones without serious training.

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well to answer that question is difficult. up to a certain standard (for me about usa 2000), it CAN be very effective, provided the player has good skills with the hardbat. the players that are most vulnerable are the closed minded, brainless double inverteds that are the same ones that bitch about long pips and anti being "unfair" or "cheating". these players are numerous, and they are the ones that will have no idea what is happening with your hardbat. you can kill them.

however, obviously double inverted bat is a far more powerful weapon intrinsically than a hardbat, otherwise pros would still use them. if your opponent, fitted with a modern bat, is a smart player who is willing to analyze the game and understands pip rubbers, they will probably beat the hardbat quite easily by locking on to one weakness and pounding it.

like i said, if you are facing 2000+ usa players, they generally have a really big, consistent weapon like a fh loop that will destroy your puny hardbat, though there are exceptions.

so to answer the question, i guess i would have to say NO, hardbat is not "that" effective vs. modern topspin game. modern topspin game is clearly superior to hardbat. it CAN be "that" effective vs. many topspin players who dont understand the hardbat or the things that certain players can do with it.

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TT Armory, N. America Palio distributor. Macro ERA Tensor, Biotech rubbers, and more.

I started with hardbat a long time ago. Maybe because of that, I can pick up a hardbat and play very well with it. I also do very well against hardbat. The highest rated player i ever got was a 1980 hardbat guy. He mainly chopped but get one a little high and a bullet went past you. He told me he has many years with double inverted but since he switched to hardbat, his rating went way up. He attributes it to the fact, not many players get to play against hardbat. He also mentioned serve return worth many points. My partner absolutely hates it when I use Dr Evil. He cannot play his double inverted attacking game at his normal intensity..

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Shakehand, left handed.
Blade, Yinhe, W-1
Forhand, H-3 National
Backhand, Sriver FX Max

Are you back to using Dr Evil rather than Peacekeeper, Hookshot?

magritte

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Toxic3,
Juic 999 Elite Defense
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Nope, Dr Evil is good but the PK is better for me. Yea, he hates the PK also.

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Shakehand, left handed.
Blade, Yinhe, W-1
Forhand, H-3 National
Backhand, Sriver FX Max

That is really what I meant, but had little time to explain myself properly. Conversely, put a hard bat in the hand of a quality player and let him play players below his standard, and it will not make much difference to results, the gap has to be quite large though.

In the standard I play, hard bat is not enough to give the attacker any problems, once he has grooved his game to the hard bat limitations, its all over.

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the covers blown, mission over

I don't know if I would consider Dr Evil to be just hardbat. Dr Evil has plenty of tricky anti characteristics which most hardbat rubbers would not have.

So maybe the question should be "Is the anti pip game really that effective against the modern topspin game?"

magritte

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Toxic3,
Juic 999 Elite Defense
Peacekeeper OX