OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Carbonman,

IMO the answer to your question, "can you just loop" against the LP player is NO. Not if you are close to the same level. JUST looping is playing to an LP players strength. We NEED you loop spin because we cannot generate much with our LP. Now if the question was "can I use my loop AND vary speed, spin, etc. etc." the answer may or may not be yes. Just as there are many types of inverted players, there are many types of LP players.

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After 9 years of LPs on BH I have gained too much weight and slowed down too much to be a chopper. I have gone to double inverted!

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LP choppers can produce a wide variety of spin variations that befuddle even world class loopers. As for the closer to the table game, pure LP blockers can play at a standard better than 90% of players and close to the table LP players with a good attack can play at a very high level, for example Song Liu and Pascal Troeger.


Like loopers would never do anything to tune their rubbers???

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Are the LP choppers getting their variation from the LP or from the inverted? When pushing a push the LP choppers usually strive to use their inverted because they then have the option of floating or pushing heavy. If you push with LP you have no variation - it just sends back an easy-to-read no-spin ball which is simple to hit powerfully.

When Song Liu and Pascal Troeger play strong players do their opponents invariably loop when given the opportunity?

Why does the percentage of pushblocker types thin out dramatically the higher one goes up in the ranking scale?

What I said earlier was nothing new or original. I was just trying to suggest that LP are actually easier to play against than some people think. When a modern attacking style player gets a long no-spin ball or a long backspin ball he loops it. (You don't have to be an elite level player to do this). If the long no-spin or backspin ball originated from inverted or LP it is just spin - there is nothing magical about the LP spin. In fact, LP is more predictable than the inverted. Modern attackers like to loop long no-spin and long backspin balls. Loops are more difficult to return than pushes.

I think it was the briefness of your replies and the "just loop everything" suggestion (repeated) that gave the impression you were being snipy. I think Najay makes some good observations even if he is over-complicating in your view. His request for feedback was to what he had written and simply telling him to loop everything isn't really feeding back into what he wrote. Not everyone loops the same and some just don't loop, so the suggestion is a bit presumptious.

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I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
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S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs Ox
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This is a forum discussing aspects of TT. When someone has disagreed with something I have said I don't take it personally and certainly don't interpret contrary opinions or brevity as being snipy. I think the same should apply here. In my opinion Najay is over-thinking the issue and he is not alone in doing this. Maybe I am wrong about this and other members are free to correct me and/or offer contrary opinions. This is what forums are about. Also, saying you should just loop against LP is doing nothing more than stating the obvious - this is what actually happens in TT above a reasonably established level. If we are discussing what tactics to employ against LP it seems logical to consider what tactics established players use against LP and perhaps try this approach ourselves. Of course if you cannot loop then you will obviously have to work out another approach.

Most of the top LP players, like Joo Se Hyuk, Chen Weixing and Panagiotis Gionis don't twiddle and take all backhand balls with the pips.
As for the closer to the table guys, Song Liu and Fabian Akerstrom take most balls with their inverted. Pascal Troeger, however, uses the pips a lot and playing at the table he is able to quickly place the ball in uncomfortable spots to loop. He is currently the top active close-to-the table player who uses LP a majority of the time. He has played as high as Bundesliga II.

You are right that at the elite levels of the sport "loop everything" is good advice. However as we go down the food chain a little ways where loops are more erratic, LP players want their opponents to try to loop...and a lot are missed.

LPs are still dangerous at most levels.

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The first comment may be considered slightly offhand, and if you can't just loop them off (be that through your deficiency or their quality) then you may mix up your game a bit more. However, isn't this the nuts and bolts of playing lp's. I was always told K.I.S.S (keep it simple stupid), why compicate things? Understand what's on the ball, the position of your opponent, where your game is at and play accordingly.

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Another one bites the dust.

I wasn't talking just about elite levels when I said you should loop against LP. Basically anyone who can loop a backspin or no-spin ball can loop against LP. That was my point. People get psyched out against LP but it is actually quite predictable and easy to play against - spin is spin no matter what surface creates it. If a player's loop is erratic then he just needs to practice more and improve it. This would seem to me to be perfectly reasonable advice.

LP's are no more dangerous than inverted - it's the quality of the player using them that is the determining factor. Of course many beginner/intermediate players will get sucked in by LP but players with a little more experience should not have trouble.

It seems to me that the issues I have dealt with are getting more and more attention. That is what I want to see.

Carbonman has a particular opinion on the matter and his suggestion that you should loop everything coming from LP players appears to be an unrealistic solution. I have been playing at my present club,which has produced even Olympians and some of the top Australian players, for a long time and I have met players coming from all over the world. There are players of all standards here and there are LP players in almost every level. I have heard what some of these players saying about pimple rubbers. I have seen many players becoming upset after playing against LP players. I have heard many people including very good loopers saying that pimple rubbers should be banned because they would provide some unjustiable advantages for some players against players who would use normal rubbers.Carbonman might have heard similar remarks, if he plays in an environment where people of different backgrounds and different styles meet.This must prove to Carbonman that LP rubbers can do different things which normal rubbers cannot do.

As I said before, all non-LP players are not playing in the same style. Some of them are mainly loopers while some play mixed strokes. Some are mere choppers while some have pushing and blocking styles. When these people meet a LP player, do you expect them to loop everything? For many TT players, looping is one major stroke, but it is not the only stroke. If you can only loop and do not play the other strokes, you are not a complete TT player. You must be able to play the other strokes too as the circumstances will require you to do so. This requirement is quite noticeable when you play against the LP players. If you can loop everything what the LP opponent will throw at you and beat them quite easily, there wouldn't be many LP players around. The truth is that the number of LP players is increasing.

Carbonman might have made his original statement while thinking about the top players in the world. I happened to watch few matches played by Joo Se Hyuk against these loopers and attackers. I watched how Joo beat Dimitrij Ovtcharov, Jorgan Persson, Christian Suss and Patrick Baum. Most of strokes played by these players against Joo were topspin loops. However, they made considerable number of mistakes when Joo was kept chopping with heavy backspin. Therefore, they had to play the other strokes, such as backhand and forehand push,and slow and high side spin balls. Hey, even at this level, mere looping will not work. You must add some other strokes too.

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It all comes down to reading the spin (and pace) correctly. If you read it correctly, they is no reason why you cannot loop the ball (if it's deep enough), but there are also other options.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but against a capable LP it's important to keep things simple... if you try and mix up the spin against a LP player, you need to focus much harder, or you won't know what's coming back. However if you keep it simple (eg mild topspin or mild push) with no side spin, there is a limited amount of things that the opponent can do with the LPs, which can you take advantage off.

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Ah but don't forget, even when there is no spin you can still work the angles with LP and vary the depths, which generally has the opponent working up the spin or giving to the FH where the LP combo player can work up the spin to then engage the LP into more. I'm not saying its easy, that's where the LP player needs to have the skill and knowledge to force the game in the direction of his own advantage, while the double-inverted player needs the skill to prevent it from happening. Its a battle of skills, which is what TT is all about!

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I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red National Pogo Ox
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs Ox
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 BH Red Dornenglanz Ox
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At the risk of dragging this out too much...a common modern attacking player of reasonable standard (not just elite level) virtually always looks to loop long backspin and no-spin balls (a loop can be anything from low and fast to high and spinny). If he doesn't loop and instead just pushes them back he allows his opponent to take the initiative and the advantage. This is the case if he is playing an inverted player or a LP player. This is not an opinion it is simply what happens. If you push a long backspin or no-spin ball the return goes long, sits up, and gives your opponent plenty of time for an easy attacking opportunity. Exceptions occur when you play a LP chopper where you may push to help move them in and out or if they do a super heavy LP chop that may be difficult to lift.

I know at the intermediate level you can often get away with pushing long balls because your opponent will chisel rather than attack. If you are happy to stay at that level then of course that is perfectly ok. However if you are a modern styled attacker who is keen to improve then you really need to work on looping every long backspin or no-spin ball no matter what rubber surface it originated from. A lot of intermediate level players have very nice shots but get killed against stronger players because they don't play tight enough and just get looped off.

Actually I would now say you are starting to contribute some helpful commentary Carbonman which expands and explains your original comments that were too brief too be helpful IMO. I still don't totally agree that looping is the only option as a heavy inverted fairly low chop can be executed to still land on the table and not necessarily be an easy attack (depends on where its placed and how willing the LP player is to attack with pips). I would argue that a good player will attack a high and spinny loop much more easily than a good low chop, especially if its to the FH inverted. Less LP players would attack that when put to their BH, but a lot would let it fall and chop it back reasonably heavily, which means needing a repeat effort of the loop and it becomes a case of who is better (more consistent) - the looper giving the LP-er more spin than he can handle, or the LP-er, forcing the looper into error. I think this applies at any reasonable level of competency up to elite level (granted at elite level they won't usually take an inverted chop option, but perhaps a strategic push, and there's a lot more variations going on to trip one another up, but its still relative).

_________________
I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red National Pogo Ox
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs Ox
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 BH Red Dornenglanz Ox
Table tennis directory / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.

Of course... for every strategy there's a counter-strategy... but that would be my basic strategy when I play LP players, and of course it needs tweaking depending on the opponent.

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By 'high and spinny' I meant a spinny loop with comfortable net clearance - the kind you see attackers frequently open up with, especially against choppers. I didn't mean a topspin lob a few inches over the net. (Naturally all loops should be placed as deep as possible). To my understanding at least, when faced with a long backspin or no-spin ball a good player will almost always loop. For reasons outlined above, a 'good low chop' in such a situation is suicidal. I will leave it to others to comment further on what a good player (not an intermediate player) would prefer to face.