OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Pointing out the truth as I see them is not "attacking", Tassie.

--You really have to stop labeling people (read: me) with your "tribal" nonsense, and start talking about real tt issues that actually affect various groups of players.

The way you are defending Adham is simply comical to me. No offense intended.

The trouble with scales*

The doctor's door opened. He looked up and sighed. "Mr Yotovski, come in. On the scales, if you please."

"Must I? Wouldn't you rather look at my backside?"

"No, Mr Yotovski. It's your weight which is the problem. On the scales, and carefully this time. They're expensive, you know."

The scales groaned. Yotovski groaned. The doctor stifled his. "You must lose weight! Fifty kilos. Thirty would be a good start, but you have to do something. You come in here complaining about your knees and your back. You tell me that when you exercise you are short of breath and sometimes your chest hurts. I'm telling you, Mr Yotovski, Vasko - you must lose weight."

The fat man smiled broadly. "But you don't understand, dear doctor. I'm perfectly happy with my weight. I am a big man and proud to be a big man. Wouldn't you like to look at my backside now?"

"Why? Is there something wrong with it?"

"No, no. It's just I like to show people my fine fat arse."

"Mr Yotovski. Vasko. Why are you here?"

"I am too slow. I am losing my table tennis matches. I need to be faster, like I was when I was young."

"You mean when you were fifty kilos lighter."

"No, no. When I was young - ah, I was so fleet of foot then. I could move like a striking cobra. I was so fast I could reach any ball. My play was a thing of beauty. Can't you help me? A little pill, perhaps. Like the great Soviet athletes of days gone by. A little pill, an injection. For my game, you understand."

"You're here because you want to win at table tennis, yes?"

"Yes! And to show you my backside!"

"Okay. You don't want to lose weight but you still want to win. Fine"

The doctor reached into his desk and removed a pad. As he started to write, Yotovski asked, "You're giving me a prescription?"

"No, no, Mr Yotovski. This is a referral to a specialist."

"A specialist?"

"Yes, it's the email address of a man in the United States. He can supply you with some specially treated long pips and then you can just stand at the table and block all day long."




* The people and events described in this post are purely fictitious. Any resemblance to persons living or dead is entirely coincidental.

_________________
"So long, and thanks for all the fish
So sad that it should come to this" Sung by the dolphins in The hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy

Was there a pimple on his backside? Did it fail the aspect ratio test? The friction test?
I didn't know Dr. N lived in the USA.

_________________
Retriever (sometimes golden, but often leaden)
Moderator, Inverted Retriever Technique sub-forum - http://ooakforum.com/viewforum.php?f=74

_________________
"So long, and thanks for all the fish
So sad that it should come to this" Sung by the dolphins in The hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy

Things my mother taught me:

1. Don't tell lies

Check out this magnificent porky:
Now, why is this a lie?

Ignore the stupid caption. Just look at the picture itself. It is immediately obvious that this photo was taken with a very, very short focal length lens. Not quite fish-eye but getting very close. What do we know about such lenses? Answer: they distort the truth! The view from those seats was not even remotely close to what is represented in the picture. I could use a lens like that in my toilet and it would look as if I need hiking boots and a cut lunch to reach the bowl.

The picture only has one purpose: to distort reality. To lie about the viewing conditions at the venue. But then again some people think that lying is okay if it serves a political purpose, which leads me to...

2. There is a difference between humour and being nasty.

Check out this piece and count the number of ways that plain, ordinary nastiness is dressed up as "humour":
Now if any one else had accusations made against them like this they would be justifiably upset. If someone suggested my wife was cheating on me, I would be angry. If someone suggested that I was cheating on my wife, I would be angry. If someone suggested that I was using my elected position to make a criminal profit, I would be angry and seeking legal advice.

But here it's all okay. Anyone and everyone can be as nasty as they like to Adham Sharara without ever having to be accountable for anything they say. Nobody cares for one moment that this guy may very well read these statements about his wife and he may very well be hurt by them. Slurs and innuendoes are acceptable because we think it makes us look big and tough.

Quite frankly, I just think it makes look this forum look petty and pathetic.

3. Do what you said you would do.

Here's another collection of quotes. See if you can guess where they're from:
Now, if memory serves me correctly, Adham Sharara is a member of this forum, and as such should have exactly the same rights as every other member. But he is insulted (see rule above), harassed (see rule above) and has knowingly false information posted about him (see rule above).

What have the moderators done about this situation?

So much for the moderators following their own rules, huh?

_________________
"So long, and thanks for all the fish
So sad that it should come to this" Sung by the dolphins in The hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy

Moderation in moderation?
Inverted the anti pimple sentiments elsewhere? (Did I miss any rubber types in that comment ?)

All jokes aside, Tassie, I tend to agree with your sentiments.

However to play the devil's advocate, the leader of the ITTF is essentially a public figure, and can't expect to be able to get away with a thin skin - a bit similar to how Australian politicians are personally attacked. The leader of the opposition with his big ears & penchant for "budgie smugglers", the prime minister and her questionable dress sense both appear to be the butt (!) of jokes here in Australia.

So why not the leader of the ITTF?

Admittedly neither of the politicians mentioned are members of the OOAK forum.

I am not sure how the moderators distinguish between Mr. Sharara's role as a member of the OOAK forum & his role as the leader of the ITTF. Or how they tell whether certain OOAKers are criticising (and worse) the OOAK member or the leader of the ITTF.

I am a little surprised that your blog entry has not drawn any notice (response) from those in the thread/blog that you quote from or TPTB aka the moderators or the friendly forum overlord.

_________________
Retriever (sometimes golden, but often leaden)
Moderator, Inverted Retriever Technique sub-forum - http://ooakforum.com/viewforum.php?f=74

Sure, I recognise there is a tension between public figure and ooak member. One of the stated goals of the forum is: When it comes to criticising the ITTF and its President, that's fair enough. But my point has very little to do with this positive role of the forum. Slur and innuendo hardly constitute "monitoring", "analysing", "questioning" or "taking action".

I don't see though why AS's role as president means that all of his other rights as a member are somehow void. If anyone else was belittled in the way he is, there would be hell to pay.

Nah, don't be surprised. My comments aren't taken seriously by anyone other than me.

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"So long, and thanks for all the fish
So sad that it should come to this" Sung by the dolphins in The hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy

I'm REALLY surprised there was no mod official response here.

Tassie does raise some real concerns, good post.

_________________
Yasaka Sweden Extra
Yasaka Rakza PO 2.0mm
TSP Curl P-1R OX

"slappy slappy slappity slap"

Moderating a forum is a tough job, and we're working hard to keep the forum running smoothly without being like Censor Police, clamping down on every comment that may or may not cross the line... we like people to express their views freely and we only step in when it's deemed absolutely necessary. Often we only send warning via PM, so just because you don't see a warning given, does not mean it was ignored.

We have a wide range of different people here, from a variety of backgrounds, all with different views on issues and different senses of humour. It's only natural that what one person finds funny, another might find offensive, but overall I'm proud of how often people comment on how friendly and helpful this forum is compared to others, so I think we must be doing something right.

Regarding Adham, it's a tricky one. When he posts here on the forum, mainly in his own thread, we try to moderate it carefully so that the thread does not get out of hand, and people don't offend him personally. I feel that in the rest of the forum, he is discussed as a public figure (which he is), and as such we allow more criticism and jokes, just like you see cartoons and jokes about our politicians in the newspaper every day (some are much worse).

We're very open to criticism about how we moderate this forum, although when the purpose of a blog seems to become one of criticizing how the forum is run, we're growing pretty tired of it, hence the lack of response. A lot of times these issues have already been discussed in private (and I've have plenty of discussion with Tassie on these types of issues already as I'm sure he can confirm), but we don't always find a solution, and sometimes discussions go around in circles, which is not constructive.

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More things my mother taught me

1. Credit where credit is due:

haggisv deserves a huge amount of credit for the way this forum is run. After having had numerous "brushes with the law", I've always found him to be personable, reasonable and helpful. While we disagree on a number of issues, I have rarely felt that this has clouded his judgment. This forum is a credit to haggisv and the countless hours of hard work he puts into it.

"overall" =

However, "overall" doesn't mean "friendly and helpful" all the time or all the people. For instance, how "friendly" is this? One forum member proudly boasts about his blog: (Please note that the emphasis on "nasty" is the author's not mine.) According to my limited grasp of the English language, "irreverent" means poking fun at something someone else holds dear; "sarcastic" means mocking another person; and "nasty" does not mean either "friendly" or "helpful". But when I challenged this, I was gently told, "Well, it's his blog. He can say whatever he likes." So, regardless of the rules about insults and harassment that apply to everyone else everywhere else, this blogger can be as unfriendly and unhelpful as often as he wishes.

2. If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all
Why is this "a tricky one"? Either Adham Sharara is a member or he's not. If he's a member - regardless of his day job - why is he not accorded the same courtesy as everyone else?

How about other "public figures" who are also members of the forum? What if someone started suggesting that William Henzell was taking money via the back door? I can find plenty of YouTube clips of Will which suggests that he is a "public figure" - does that mean I can insinuate whatever I like about him? How about pushblocker? He's a public figure - after all anyone who is discussed as often as he is on TT forums is obviously not a nobody. Does that mean we can we can insult him, harass him, mock him, and make insinuations about his marriage? No? But we can about Adham Sharara!

3. If something's worth doing, it's worth doing well
Yes, credit where credit is due - haggisv is "very open to criticism". He certainly seems to agree with my mother on doing things well.

But I do have to take issue with the notion that my blog is only about "criticizing how the forum is run". After all, a quick run through of my blog shows that I've written about practice vs talent, Ross Leidy's blades, tribes and tribalism, Yotovski's propensity for displaying his backside, amongst other things. Yes, this particular thread is critical of the moderation of posts which smear a member - as it should be. If we really believe that this forum is something "worth doing well" then healthy criticism is quite justified. Hopefully, I haven't smeared anyone - I have deliberately left out posters' names in many instances - and I haven't told any lies about anyone. Have I been "friendly"? Probably not, but that's a mite tricky when discussing a contentious issue. Have I been "helpful"? I'd like to think that inviting a discussion which might just make the forum even friendlier would be a good thing. Even so, haggisv is right - "we don't always find a solution".

I would like to think that if I bumped into haggisv at a tournament somewhere that we'd stop and chat together. For a start, I'd love to show him my blades (Sally and Suzie) just to make him jealous! And one thing I would certainly do is say, "Well done. The forum is a credit to you."

_________________
"So long, and thanks for all the fish
So sad that it should come to this" Sung by the dolphins in The hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy

Thank you, and lets not forget the other moderators and spambusters, who's actions you rarely see (but when you do may well be the one you critize), but at times there can be a lot going on in the background, and the amount of time and effort they volunteer for the forum should also be acknowledged and appreciated.


Not true, his comments are not above the rules of the forum, but we do allow people in blogs to express their personal views on things and give them leadway, even if they're views that are controversial or may not be suitable for the main forum as it could result in flaming or counterproductive discussions.
Since the blog section is clearly a section where people voice their own personal views, which may not always tie up with the view or opinion of the main forum, we just draw the line a little further.


Adham is not just a public figure, he's also a politician for the ITTF, and his decisions and statements affect us all, sometimes in a negative way. No I don't like to see him insulted or harassed, but critisism is justified as his statement and decisions affect us all. The controversial statement above was written by Lorre, and to me it seemed obvious that it was a parody, so although some might find it a bit tasteless, I would not call it a direct insult or an insinuation about his marriage. I do respect Adham, and feel he deserves credit for a lot of the work he does and the time he spends talking to me and the forum. I also do not agree with some of his decisions, and since some are badly affected by some of these decisions which they feel are unjustified and wrong but they are powerless to do anything about it, you can't blame people for critising him, questioning his motives or making fun of a situation they can't do anything about... within reason of course.


And I take issue with that. I clearly said "seems to become one of criticizing how the forum is run" which is based on the direction that the blog has taken recently. I did NOT say "only about", so this is clearly misquoting what I said. Not cool. The moderators and myself already have the burden of having to watch what we say before we post it, or it can be quoted and used against us elsewhere (sometimes out of context), so this sort of thing does not help.


Of course I would be glad to catch up for a chat... it's pretty obvious we're both passioned about TT, and I would not let a little disagreement in the forum get in the way of that.



BTW I should also say that if you had simply PMed myself or one of the other mods about this issue, we could have simply made a decision on this single issue, and removed it if we felt it crossed the line. A long post on how the moderators don't follow their own rules and highlighting the "insults" results in:
- giving the "insults" much more exposure and the potential to offend more people
- pretty much forces me to publicly defend our position or admit we made a mistake - this always takes a big toll on me personally and I suspect it does on the other mods too
- if an mistake was indeed made, it's made impossible to undo
I think a PM and discussion would always be more appropriate, in the interest of the forum and those involved.

_________________
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As it seems Haggisv is the only one responding to the issues raised here, I would chime in at this point and re-iterate on the things that he has stated, and I am pretty sure the other mods feel similarly to myself. The forum is about interests in all aspects of TT and some fun discussion. As a diverse group of people from all over the world and its disparate cultures I believe that it functions pretty well in being a friendly place, especially when you compare to other forums. Sense of humour varies from person to person, letalone culture to culture. Dragging statements out of places that have pretty obviously been made as a joke (whether you find the joke amusing or not) is clearly unfair. Having a go at the moderators (or anyone else) for laughing at someone's joke is also clearly unfair as it demeans the moderator's right to their own sense of humour, as well as trying to impose judgment on what people are allowed find funny - which is dictatorial IMO. Of course, it is your right to express your view that YOU don't find it funny yourself and perhaps reasons why, but that's where the opinion should stop. Inferences and judgments upon to regular members on the forum (whether named or not) can be inflammatory. I have personally been taken out of context by you Tassie in some of your posts and used to try to put your view forward. I don't find it a particularly nice thing but to this point have remained silent about it, but I raise it now to show support for those who you may have insulted without realising it. If it was clearly all in fun I wouldn't care, as I like a bit of fun. Except its pretty obvious its not in fun. It seems to me you would rather rush to the defense of a man who visits this forum infrequently to perform something of a PR role (and I am not putting Adham down here as I personally think its great he does post here, but I am sure he is thick skinned enough to take any jokes set upon him here, as I am sure he must deal with much worse than that), than to get along with the rest of the "community" we have here. Like Haggisv, I have also tried very hard to keep relations between yourself and other forum members on an even keel, as well as make you feel welcome here. Some of your comments show you haven't appreciated that, which is disappointing to me. Anyway, nothing is ever unrecoverable IMO. So perhaps from hereon in it would be good to bear in mind some of the things we have said, which may make things more settled and smooth for us all.

And same goes for me as for ever meeting. I'd have a chat and a hit with you quite happily. In the end this is a complex exchange of views across many people and its a sure mix to cause friction between members at times. You are not Robinson Crusoe where that is concerned.

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Tassie, you raise some interesting points.

I'm am not one who reads blogs often and I'm getting a bit confused now by the direction yours is taking. Are you
1. questioning whether the "rules" of the forum should be applied to blogs without lee way or moving of any bar or
2. questioning the actions of the moderators / admin or
3. defending Adham

I personally find the forum a lot better place now more people are using blogs. As happened rently on MNNB's, someone felt MNNB was being negative, posted so and said they wouldn't be reading it anymore. MNNB accepted that. That's the great nature of blogs, you know up front who's blog it is and what to expect - unlike open forum topics where titles don't always prepare the reader for what's coming next. To me, opinions are expressed in blogs and even if they are passed off as fact I won't challenge them there. If an opinion is presented as fact elswhwere in the forum I will. Blogs to me have "organised" the forum much better and stopped a multitude of threads being swamped by similar arguments and points of views. If allowing greater flexibility to those that right blogs and also right in those blogs is the price to pay, then I think it's worth it. Aslo those blogs do raise interesting points which are sometimes extracted from the blog and posted elsewhere in the forum which gives others chance to comment - if they so choose.

Regarding the moderators, it is a job I would not want. If the forum is a duck, they are the ducks feet constantly paddling away under the service trying to ensure that what everyone else sees is calm and productive. No one will always get it right, but interestingly I've not seen anything in your blog that's been censored and the moderators have either respected your right to express yourself in your own blog and remained out of it, or answered your questions - maybe not to yours or others satisfaction but they have been answered. I have some idea of what type of issues and grief the moderators/admin have to put up with and simply being a mod shouldn't mean you agree to accept to deal with that behaviour but this IS a much more friendly and respectful forum than a lot of others I've viewed.

Regarding Adham being treated differently, Adham has said before that he is only really interested in participating in his own thread - which is fine, that's his right. But I would not consider Adham to be a forum member as such. From what I've read of his contributions to this forum Adham generally uses this forum as a channel of communication and a sound board for things which interest him / ITTF - which is fine especially when Adham doesn't represent us - we are customers to the ITTF not members. The forum's a type of market research tool. However, if I feel someone questions his integrety I will pm him about it and give him the opportunity to defend himself - if he wants to, which he has done in the past. So if people are out of line, Adham does have the opportunity to raise this with site admin - a site admin who I've read on a number of occasions posting things which could quite easily be seen to be defending Adham. That's a lose / lose situation that site admin finds himself in - dammed if I do, dammed if I don't. Basically, Adham is a big lad, as long as he knows what's being said i won't lose any sleep over whether the forum rules treat him differently. And if I don't think he knows and he should, I won't defend him, I'll bring it to his attention - he can defend himself if he wants, he's perfectly capable of that. So I won't criticise the admin or moderators for allowing what I've read on the fourm - note I say what I've read on the fourm because like haggisv says, there is so much that goes on behind the scenes - things which should stay behind the scenes in the politics of running a forum. For me, ignorance of this type of moderator activity is bliss and the mods/admin are welcome to it.

I like you Tassie, you fill a vacuum which was created when another forum member left here in that you represent an alternate view to one which is portrayed strongly by others here - you act as a counter balance, and you are not alone in your views. By the same token there are others here I don't like when they pass off their opinion as fact and that is well documented, but I also recognise that sometimes that their opinion can indeed be fact and they have raised some interesting questions which have not to date been answered fully. And best of all there are now blogs which are being used to express these countering views without swamping the main forum. AND even better, where an intersting point is made, others have the opportunity to lift issues out of those blogs and raise them in the open forum in the appropriate place.

Everyone on this forum has the opportunity to post. Everyone has the opportunity to reply. Everyone has the opportunity to challenge behaviour. The moderators and site admin have the power to "moderate" behaviour. The use of these blogs is one such example of moderation. I'm much happier in this forum now than I was six months ago. Please continue to post your opinions Tassie, but by the same token there comes a time when a "topic or issue" has run it's natural course and new issues and topics need to be discussed or a blog becomes too inwardly looking and strangles itself. I'm hoping, for me atleast, that won't happen with your blog.

Being heralded as the heir apparent to someone who tried to sabotage this forum and has been banned from two other TT forums is quite the compliment. Excellent analogy Debater!

_________________



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"....in that you represent an alternate view to one which is portrayed strongly by others here"

You chose to pick up on one comment in a long post and elaborate in your own way. Save your sarcasm MNNB and mis quotes. Speedplay challenged you. You don't like that. He left. I don't agree with how he left, but he wouldn't be bullied by you and he also contributed a lot to how successful this forum is. Don't dismiss that with your own analogy. If you want to discuss this further I suggest a pm rather than an open comment on someone elses blog.