OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Erudite? Yeah, I got that one wrong! Expedite is correct. I'll fix that little error straight away - before anyone sees it.

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Weapon 1: Andro Kinetic Supreme Hinoki/Zylon OFF-; Andro Hexer HDs (FH 2.1/BH 1.9)
Weapon 2: Ross Leidy 'Smokey'; Friendship 729-5s
Club1: Daylesford - since 2010
Club2: Ballarat - since 2011
Blog: A Naked Bear

Too late. I guess you'll put that one down to a "deep learning experience"

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I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.

Great story Oskar, I love it!

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OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
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Killing Two Rounds with One Post

Round 2 saw our team, Supernova, up against who many consider the flag favourites, Delta. As always, I don't go into a match with unbridled bravado. As I've said before (I think), my typical state of mind is a balance of confidence and self-doubt, which I hope cancels itself out into a more positive mindset that I'll just play to win with my best intentions. Holding this balance is crucial against players I've never faced before and, in the case of our round 2 clash, I had never played two of their players.

As usual, captains begin the night and I knew from statistics and hearsay that Delta's captain, DE, was a very handy player. I purposefully use the adjective, handy, because I was not prepared for his questionable serve. At the start of the game we were simply taking points off each other with our serves and each of our inabilities to return effectively. Now, I know I can give grief to a lot of players with my serve, but it is a legal serve, i.e. ball tossed from a flat palm six inches or more and struck on the descent. My opponent's serve, at least from where I was standing, was straight from the hand and almost impossible to read - I even suspected that his was putting pre-spin on the ball from his fingers, but I can't be 100% sure. Other than that, he was a competent player and a very worthy opponent, but I was confident that I had the skills to win. Unfortunately it didn't happen that way and, even though it sounds like I'm making excuses and coming across like a bad loser, I do feel cheated because of his questionable serve. But what can you do? I do expect at A-level competition that the basic rules of the game are adhered to. Having come from a season of B-level play I wasn't fussed that players in that division might have had some issues with their quality of game, because even if they served from their hand it rarely gave me grief. I just knew that their lack of ability was what was going to keep them at that level.

I suppose the issue of serving legally (and playing the game by the rules) is only starting to annoy me now because of my expectation that A-level players possess reasonable skills and shouldn't have an advantage with techniques that don't go by the book. It actually makes me burn up inside a bit thinking that there is the potential that as I advance in the game I'm going to have to deal with players who cheat. Yes, cheat to get to the top. I know I couldn't live with my victories if I felt that I wasn't competing on a level playing field. It takes all types, I suppose. Your comments are very welcome.

The short of it was that our team still managed to win the night, 6-5, but it was too close for comfort. I am looking forward to playing against them again, but I know I'll be going into my games against DE with a bad taste in my mouth, especially when his out-of-his-hand serves start coming my way. All I can really hope to do is 'work them out' and send him on his way.

Last night, round 3 was a walk over. We had a good feeling that it was going to be an easy night because the team was rated as one of the lower skilled teams. Sure enough, I won all my singles quite comfortably and my team mates managed a couple of singles victories each. The final result was 9-2, which secured a strong hold on the top of the ladder for us.

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Weapon 1: Andro Kinetic Supreme Hinoki/Zylon OFF-; Andro Hexer HDs (FH 2.1/BH 1.9)
Weapon 2: Ross Leidy 'Smokey'; Friendship 729-5s
Club1: Daylesford - since 2010
Club2: Ballarat - since 2011
Blog: A Naked Bear

Yes, it was a good night; I'm hoping it will help me in my recovery from my form slump; now I have a new table that is actually flat I think it's time to practise some serves.

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Blade: Andro Kinetic Supreme Zylon/Kiso Hinoki OFF-
FH: Hexer HD 1.7 mm sponge
BH: CTT National Pogo OX
Style: FH counterhitter, BH disruptor

I think it is more than reasonable to expect experienced A-level players to not serve out of their hand. The serves of many players of varying standards aren't quite legal (some, for example, rest the ball slightly in their fingers when they do a ball toss) but they obtain no advantage in doing so. Also, importantly, their intent is not to cheat or to gain an unfair advantage. The out-of-the-hand serve however is clear and blatant violation which actually does gain an unfair advantage. It is hard to believe that an experienced player who does this isn't intentionally breaking the rules.

Thankfully the out-of-the-hand servers tend to disappear as you climb a bit further up the ladder. Every now and then you might come across a player who cheats in a different way - for instance, some players don't acknowledge nets/edges. (Years ago I played an ex-Australian junior champion (a chopper) who deliberately served sweat balls in order to make the ball fall off my bat when I looped.) Fortunately this sort of thing doesn't happen too frequently.

Yeah, it was just the tonic! But do keep in mind that their standard of play last night was about solid B-level. No doubt their number one had the skills and experience to keep her team from complete annihilation, but their journey is going to be very tough. Last night's game and your rising confidence suggests that there is real virtue in making sure that you play at a level that is comfortable. This was a topic on another thread about playing in the right league to improve your game and I was always of the opinion that there is little advantage to playing in a division that saw loss after loss. Sure, I don't condone being the 'shark amongst the minnows', but, luckily, with the wide range of divisions available to play in this should rarely be a problem.

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Weapon 1: Andro Kinetic Supreme Hinoki/Zylon OFF-; Andro Hexer HDs (FH 2.1/BH 1.9)
Weapon 2: Ross Leidy 'Smokey'; Friendship 729-5s
Club1: Daylesford - since 2010
Club2: Ballarat - since 2011
Blog: A Naked Bear

The question is what to do about it? Like I said, I can accept a club turning a blind eye to B-level and lower players doing questionable things, but when players enter the A-divisions - no matter what number follows the letter - then it should not be tolerated. I really don't want to come across as a bad sport or a whinger or a whistle blower, but I do think it taints the sport and the club.

I've thought of approaching the club admin. and talking about it, and it's probably the only reasonable thing to do. I know that the problem might also be solved if we had independent umpires, because when players umpire matches there's very little scope to do more than score the game. Or is there?

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Weapon 1: Andro Kinetic Supreme Hinoki/Zylon OFF-; Andro Hexer HDs (FH 2.1/BH 1.9)
Weapon 2: Ross Leidy 'Smokey'; Friendship 729-5s
Club1: Daylesford - since 2010
Club2: Ballarat - since 2011
Blog: A Naked Bear

I would bring it up during the game. Inform the umpire (within earshot of your opponent) that you opponent is serving out of his hand and needs to throw the ball up the required distance.

It's very awkward to bring it up during a friendly game... I think a few casual remarks or a friendly chat is the ways to go... they might more readily accept that they simply need to learn this soon or later, instead of feeling like you're doing it just to win a game.

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OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide

Oskar I wouldn't worry about it during a pennant match. You will come across players in the bush that play in all kinds of magical ways that are not especially within the rules, none of it is deliberate, I probably play 10 guys a month that serve with no toss at all from the fingers, they aren't hitting any kind of complex spin so it makes zero difference to me. Pennant is just like that, at tournaments half the players have marginal serves, but they are all close enough, much closer than you get at pennant.

Much worse are the players that make the ball sweaty or blow on the ball (I hateeeeee that), I don't know how you could say that isn't deliberate. Other guys claim lets and edges when they weren't there. Even then I'm not sure those guys do it deliberately, I feel that maybe they are just that bloody competitive that their own mind is able to modify what their eyes have seen to suit their own advantage in the match. Some will argue black and blue against the umpire and all other players on the court for a ball that was a couple of inches clear in critical points of the match. It's much nicer to just go with what the umpire sees or both players have agreed on, otherwise just keep playing. It's not that serious a game that you need to make enemies over it

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Donic defplay senso
Haifu whale soft (grips-euro)
Nittaku pimplemini 1.0mm

@carbonman - the problem with talking with the umpire is that it's likely to be one of the opposing team players and, therefore, unlikely to see a problem. Even if it's one of my team mates I wouldn't be confident they would want to go down that path, which leads to ...

@foam - i hear what you're saying and that's why I'm more inclined to just let it pass. But there is that burning up inside that is prepared to tackle injustice - and not only mine. Okay, I'm not going to pretend that part of the reason I want a fair and level playing field is because I do have my eye on the prize, but there is a part of me that wants to stamp this problem out before it potentially ruins the game for others, too. Sure, it's more or less a nonconsquential pennant competition and diplomacy should rule the day. I certainly don't want to create enemies or bad feelings, but I do wonder how someone who is the number 1 player of a team can not only get away with, but also justify serving illegally at this level of the game. Okay, okay, I know I've got to remind myself that it's just a pennant competition in a country town. Maybe I have to keep reminding myself that eventually the problem will pass. I know I have a tendency to make mountains out of molehills.

But the problem is, as I've already stated, we are all trying to fight with our best and fairest ability to win the top prize. A big part of me feels that if players can pick and choose what part of the rules to abide by then it kind of takes the wind out of my sails. And I don't even want to think about breaking the rules myself. I can accept that this is all probably an overreaction. I do have that tendency in circumstances like this. But I can tell you that if I wasn't paying to play and it was purely for a laugh and a good time this would not be an issue.

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Weapon 1: Andro Kinetic Supreme Hinoki/Zylon OFF-; Andro Hexer HDs (FH 2.1/BH 1.9)
Weapon 2: Ross Leidy 'Smokey'; Friendship 729-5s
Club1: Daylesford - since 2010
Club2: Ballarat - since 2011
Blog: A Naked Bear

Oskar because you are on a rapid improvement you will have gone past this player in the relative blink of an eye and then you wont have to worry about it again. Just spend the time you are worrying about it on getting better. Worrying about it is probably stopping you from seeing a flaw in the guys game that you can exploit and beat him with. You can bring the issue up if you want, it's just not something I've ever done or been all that concerned about

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Donic defplay senso
Haifu whale soft (grips-euro)
Nittaku pimplemini 1.0mm

This is probably good advice. Problems associated with out-of-the-hand servers in lower/lower-middle grades have been around for decades (probably since the 50's?) and are unlikely to disappear overnight. Pretty soon you would have sailed past such players and it will no longer be an issue for you.

Except they don't just live in the lower and middle grades. I see them frequently in the upper grades as well. There is one guy in our A3 division, who could easily play A2 and possibly A1, but holds 2 weaker players together in A3, who will serve illegally when the match is tight. He gets a massive spin advantage and its one of these things Foam suggests I think, that he is so competitive he probably justifies it in his own mind as ok cos he is under pressure. He's a nice, friendly guy off the court too! Go 180 to that and last night we had a (regular) fill-in play against us whose serve toss was atrocious. He thought he was tossing the ball, but his hand was following it up and hiding the ball til he struck it. He got very angry and narky when called on it and it made it unpleasant to play him as he was both narky and continued his illegal serves refusing to yield and telling us to get a ruler to measure his serve toss, which was very immature IMO.

_________________
I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.