OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
Live Table Tennis Videos Table Tennis News Live OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 12 Dec 2017, 04:42


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 400 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 27  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Rebuilding My Forehand.
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2015, 10:42 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 2674
Has thanked: 242 times
Been thanked: 244 times
Blade: Tibhar Inca ST
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
Like everyone else, my forehand is my hardest shot. However, it is also my least consistent. Therefore, I want to rebuild it with my physical limitations in mind. I think the process of fixing a fairly advanced stroke and the difficulties involved may be of interest to some people. I have to fix my backhand as well, but I find the problems there less debilitating at the moment. If I can get my forehand to be largely the same stroke, I think it will reap great benefits. I seem to have three or more different strokes depending on the ball and my mood.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 


Don't want to see this advertisement? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!

PostPosted: 16 Feb 2015, 13:06 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 2674
Has thanked: 242 times
Been thanked: 244 times
Blade: Tibhar Inca ST
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
So why fix my forehand? Well, unfortunately, I rarely if ever do short youtube videos and I don't edit videos currently, though if I can find some cool software for doing so, I will start.

My current forehand is mostly an arm shot, though sometimes, it can be a body shot if my knees and waist are feeling good on a particular day. It's definitely more drive than spin. IF you want to see the best and the worst of my forehand all in one video, with me overusing my backhand as well, here is a sample:



It's partly a footwork and mobility problem with my knees but in general, I don't trust my forehand. I can both spin and drive on my backhand (though you don't see me do it here). But my forehand is largely drive - I think that the key thing I need to change is to learn how to counterspin topspin. If I can fix that, then I think my confidence in my forehand will grow. I tend to drive topspin but I don't do it as reliably as I would like vs. better players. If I spin consistently on my forehand and be more selective about driving the ball, that might help. Maybe it's a footwork problem and unless I fix my knees. it won't get better. Maybe I will switch to pips and stop looping... No. I will spin on my forehand. Whatever my limitations, I will work aggressively on my brush timing and see where that gets me.

So what I want to do is to incorporate some of what Brett Clarke posts about the forehand with my current coach's philosophy on spin over speed and get a more consistent forehand. I will use one forehand stroke as much as possible. I will mostly use wrist variations to contact different points of the ball and different sweep trajectories to handle vertical versus horizontal. But the foundation of the stroke will be the same. I want the arm motion to be largely the same like the teddy bear. What may change is how straight the arm is given how jammed I am and my limited mobility. I will also try a wider stance.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2015, 15:58 
Offline
The EJ's Boogyman
The EJ's Boogyman
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010, 12:20
Posts: 2474
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 126 times
You can significantly improve your loop forehand very quickly by simply getting your bat back faster. If you look at your forehand in the clip you will see that the stroke is backwards then forwards in the same motion. There is no pause. This leads to a loss of power and spin as well as poor timing. Try to ensure that there is always a pause, no matter how brief, between backswing and the forward stroke. Watch Zhang Jike doing multi ball - he gets his bat back almost instantly. Even check out Jeff here and note how there is always a slight pause between backswing and stroke.



The idea is to maximise the use of time between strokes. Aim to have your bat back before the ball bounces so that you are waiting for it (I actually try to get my bat ready before my opponent has hit the ball). Give it a try, you will be amazed how much easier things become.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2015, 16:11 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 2674
Has thanked: 242 times
Been thanked: 244 times
Blade: Tibhar Inca ST
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
carbonman wrote:
You can significantly improve your loop forehand very quickly by simply getting your bat back faster. If you look at your forehand in the clip you will see that the stroke is backwards then forwards in the same motion. There is no pause. This leads to a loss of power and spin as well as poor timing. Try to ensure that there is always a pause, no matter how brief, between backswing and the forward stroke. Watch Zhang Jike doing multi ball - he gets his bat back almost instantly. Even check out Jeff here and note how there is always a slight pause between backswing and stroke.

The idea is to maximise the use of time between strokes. Aim to have your bat back before the ball bounces so that you are waiting for it (I actually try to get my bat ready before my opponent has hit the ball). Give it a try, you will be amazed how much easier things become.


Thanks, carbonman. Wish I had seen this earlier - would have tried to work it into my drills. My stroke is largely an arm stroke because of my bad knees so it tend to make my recovery slower but you are right and I have to think about how to recover faster. One idea I have is to make my follow through not go beyond my center line and that is leaving me in better balance. And of course, to use my waist/body turn more.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2015, 16:14 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 2674
Has thanked: 242 times
Been thanked: 244 times
Blade: Tibhar Inca ST
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
Here is my first match after my coaching session today. My opponent was once a high level player (and still is for his age). He has a very heavy push, but I find both the mistakes and successes I make in this match encouraging. If you agree or disagree, please let me know. Of course, my knee braces are beneath my pants so don't be deceived by the look of normality....


_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2015, 16:32 
Offline
The EJ's Boogyman
The EJ's Boogyman
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010, 12:20
Posts: 2474
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 126 times
NextLevel wrote:
Thanks, carbonman. Wish I had seen this earlier - would have tried to work it into my drills. My stroke is largely an arm stroke because of my bad knees so it tend to make my recovery slower but you are right and I have to think about how to recover faster. One idea I have is to make my follow through not go beyond my center line and that is leaving me in better balance. And of course, to use my waist/body turn more.

Yes, I am aware of your knees and you do a very good job compensating for them. If you have a look at the first clip you posted you will see that when you do fh to fh your bat stays forward for a decent length of time (in tt terms) and then you do the backwards/forwards motion in one go. This a common issue with a good many players.

I think if you can get in the habit of getting your bat back asap and then have a pause before you swing forward, it will make quite a difference.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2015, 16:46 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 17 Jul 2013, 17:01
Posts: 450
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 57 times
Blade: Joola CWX
FH: T05 2.1
BH: Agenda 1.0
I think that with bad knees you should stay near the table more. You seem often to BH loop and take step back. You end up countering your FH from too far away from table.

Basic strategy should be blocking and counterhitting of the bounce. I don't see doing many FH blocks.

I have older gentleman as my training partner with reduced mobility and he hits everything possible off the bounce. Also driving should be performed close to the table.

As a service return you might need FH choppy push to get max underspin.

It also might be good idea to give up topspinning as a FH stategy, as it's uneffective, if you can't get power from your legs.

Of course you should have appropriate equipment to counter FH off the bounce.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2015, 17:02 
Offline
003 Style Master
003 Style Master
User avatar

Joined: 27 Apr 2011, 20:23
Posts: 2018
Location: South Australia
Has thanked: 219 times
Been thanked: 232 times
Blade: Donic Appelgren AllplayV1
FH: Donic Baracuda
BH: Xiom Vega Europe DF
carbonman wrote:
The idea is to maximise the use of time between strokes. Aim to have your bat back before the ball bounces so that you are waiting for it (I actually try to get my bat ready before my opponent has hit the ball). Give it a try, you will be amazed how much easier things become.


I can understand getting yo bat back as early as possible but how can you get it back before your opponent has hit it? What if they hit it to your backhand, aren't you over committed or does it assume you are either very forehand dominant, standing right at the edge of the table out perhaps you are able to read where the opponent is going to hit it. Something i struggle to do unless very familiar with the player and used to what they do.

_________________
Donic Appelgren Allplay Senso V1, Donic Baracuda 2.0mm ,BH Xiom Vega Europe DF 2.0mm
Yasaka Extra, Nil, Nil
Sunflex Hurricane, Milky Way 955 LP OX , 729 802-40 2.0


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2015, 17:07 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 2674
Has thanked: 242 times
Been thanked: 244 times
Blade: Tibhar Inca ST
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
Roy wrote:
I think that with bad knees you should stay near the table more. You seem often to BH loop and take step back. You end up countering your FH from too far away from table.

Basic strategy should be blocking and counterhitting of the bounce. I don't see doing many FH blocks.

I have older gentleman as my training partner with reduced mobility and he hits everything possible off the bounce. Also driving should be performed close to the table.

As a service return you might need FH choppy push to get max underspin.

It also might be good idea to give up topspinning as a FH stategy, as it's uneffective, if you can't get power from your legs.

Of course you should have appropriate equipment to counter FH off the bounce.


I forehand block and counterhit a lot, but the question is how far that can get you by itself when facing 2000+ loopers. I never used to back up, but the problem in part is that my service return is not great, so I often have to defend against third ball attacks that are devastating if I stay too close to the table, and my topspin is heavy enough I need time to see the ball if it comes back. And even then in general, it takes courage to block 2200+ high arcing loops at the table when those guys backup and topspin. I think for my height, the distance I give up isn't that much when I step back. I just try not to overdo it.

And yes, I need a better forehand push. I think I am getting closer because I am learning to take my wrist back a little on the forehand, though there is still control work there.

When everything is clicking, this is the kind of matches you might see (the kid is 2100+ and has been killing me recently because he is now much more aggressive if I don't spin the ball heavily).


_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2015, 17:15 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 2674
Has thanked: 242 times
Been thanked: 244 times
Blade: Tibhar Inca ST
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
Cobalt wrote:
carbonman wrote:
The idea is to maximise the use of time between strokes. Aim to have your bat back before the ball bounces so that you are waiting for it (I actually try to get my bat ready before my opponent has hit the ball). Give it a try, you will be amazed how much easier things become.


I can understand getting yo bat back as early as possible but how can you get it back before your opponent has hit it? What if they hit it to your backhand, aren't you over committed or does it assume you are either very forehand dominant, standing right at the edge of the table out perhaps you are able to read where the opponent is going to hit it. Something i struggle to do unless very familiar with the player and used to what they do.


I don't see a problem with that - I find the ready position to be a generally debilitating concept and just think that you ultimately have to anticipate where the ball is going with the ability to recover and accept your limitations when you are wrong. It takes a better player to take a quality shot you have hit and redirect it where you can't anticipate it - if you hit a quality forehand shot, it's generally going to be hit cross court for safety reasons unless the opponent is just a few levels above you or wants to try for a risky winner. When the ball is slow, it can be hit either way if the opponent is on time and that is just a fact of life and is not really about forehand stroke recovery.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2015, 17:26 
Offline
The EJ's Boogyman
The EJ's Boogyman
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010, 12:20
Posts: 2474
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 126 times
Cobalt wrote:
I can understand getting yo bat back as early as possible but how can you get it back before your opponent has hit it? What if they hit it to your backhand, aren't you over committed or does it assume you are either very forehand dominant, standing right at the edge of the table out perhaps you are able to read where the opponent is going to hit it. Something i struggle to do unless very familiar with the player and used to what they do.

Two things:

1- The idea is to train yourself so that in a match you snap your bat into position the very instant you see where the ball is going. Many/most players leave their bat forward for way too long and so are always rushed. Thus in practice you try to get it back asap in order to get into good habits. When Korbel visited our club he also advocated getting ready before your opponent has hit the ball.
2- In a match you can often be fairly confident where the ball will go and/or that you will be able to play a strong fh on the next ball. In these situations you can prepare extremely early.

Look how quickly Zhang gets his bat back here.

[youtube]www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBe0XjZ4S94[/youtube]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2015, 18:01 
Offline
003 Style Master
003 Style Master
User avatar

Joined: 27 Apr 2011, 20:23
Posts: 2018
Location: South Australia
Has thanked: 219 times
Been thanked: 232 times
Blade: Donic Appelgren AllplayV1
FH: Donic Baracuda
BH: Xiom Vega Europe DF
Yep, i get it now. I guess also being a better player is also being able to anticipate the ball better. I think that the better shot you play, the less options the opponent has, making the anticipation easier.

_________________
Donic Appelgren Allplay Senso V1, Donic Baracuda 2.0mm ,BH Xiom Vega Europe DF 2.0mm
Yasaka Extra, Nil, Nil
Sunflex Hurricane, Milky Way 955 LP OX , 729 802-40 2.0


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2015, 13:37 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 11 Mar 2013, 21:12
Posts: 849
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 37 times
carbonman wrote:
Cobalt wrote:
I can understand getting yo bat back as early as possible but how can you get it back before your opponent has hit it? What if they hit it to your backhand, aren't you over committed or does it assume you are either very forehand dominant, standing right at the edge of the table out perhaps you are able to read where the opponent is going to hit it. Something i struggle to do unless very familiar with the player and used to what they do.

Two things:

1- The idea is to train yourself so that in a match you snap your bat into position the very instant you see where the ball is going. Many/most players leave their bat forward for way too long and so are always rushed. Thus in practice you try to get it back asap in order to get into good habits. When Korbel visited our club he also advocated getting ready before your opponent has hit the ball.
2- In a match you can often be fairly confident where the ball will go and/or that you will be able to play a strong fh on the next ball. In these situations you can prepare extremely early.

Look how quickly Zhang gets his bat back here.

[youtube]www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBe0XjZ4S94[/youtube]


Most players spectate their own handiwork too much after they can do nothing about it instead of using that time for more useful activities like observe what the opponent is doing. If you watch what the other guy is going for, reacting appropriately comes more naturally.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2015, 14:42 
Offline
Full member

Joined: 20 Feb 2015, 14:37
Posts: 68
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 8 times
Blade: nitaku tenagy
FH: victas v15
BH: victas v15 soft
I tried waiting at the end of the backswing and it made a big difference to the spin and speed of the ball. I have a habit of hitting the ball too early and this tip seems to help me overcome this issue. I can see I will be better at the faster ball too. I tried it on the robot and put the interval fast and I could maintain control. My coach was interested too. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2015, 02:51 
Offline
One-Loop Man
One-Loop Man
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2011, 10:45
Posts: 2674
Has thanked: 242 times
Been thanked: 244 times
Blade: Tibhar Inca ST
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
I did about two hours of practice (not all forehand) - maybe about 10-15 minutes of actual looping. I implemented Carbonman's advice and it threw my timing off a bit (not even sure if I was actually looping vs. hitting the ball).




As always, comments are welcome. I intend to do something more structured (maybe multiball) vs. backspin and topspin later this week.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 400 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 27  Next


Don't want to see this advertisement? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2012 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group




Don't forget to 'LIKE' our forum on Facebook if you enjoy the content: