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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2018, 03:58 
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Dunc i found this on a forum.I think you will like .
https://www.tennis-de-table.com/forums/ ... /37151/p/1

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2018, 07:46 
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peterpong wrote:
Dunc i found this on a forum.I think you will like .
https://www.tennis-de-table.com/forums/ ... /37151/p/1
Is this the one you mean? https://youtu.be/Y6hmnuAvxZg

Same players - different year! The rally at 9-9 is utterly incredible.. though I felt horribly sorry for the attacking player in terms of how it ended :D

Great to watch.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2018, 08:12 
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yes thats the one. :Defense:


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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2018, 18:18 
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My absolute favourite to watch at the moment is Daniel Kleinert:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqxHlZ ... barPUkJBaw

He comes across a bit.. arrogant :D But he's really taleneted. A genuine classic defender. Great reactions, unbelievably consistent.

In 2015 he travelled to Ireland for the Ulster Open and beat Gavin Rumgay, Gavin Maguire (prev champ) and Ashley Robinson (ROI #1) in quick succession. It's fun to watch!


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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2018, 18:23 
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Also, interesting to notice, he twiddles on almost every shot. This is something I'll be trying this week in practice.

He twiddles to push with inverted on his backhand, and often to receive serve.

He also twiddles to chop on his forehand with pimples.

It's very hard to do - but it alleviates a lot of the major weaknesses of playing with LPs.

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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2018, 18:21 
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I tried this in practice last night... it didn't go too well :D

I'm just too slow "of the mind" to twiddle effectively on each shot. I guess it's practice too, but it's not a technique issue - I can obviously twiddle no problem at all; I do so after most serves and to play backhand loops/blocks. It's more about reading the game, knowing where your opponent is going to play the ball. I do this really well against players I play against regularly but otherwise I'm pretty poor.

I managed to practice returning serve and backhand pushing with the inverted (I basically twiddled the bat and started each point that way), and this was quite effective. I'm going to keep practising this because it's a really useful tool against low-spin players. Beat the soon-to-be England #5 Cadet 3-1 but he wasn't really playing properly (and I kept intentionally goading him, telling him he can't spin a ball etc - like the mature adult I am :D).

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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2018, 19:20 
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dunc wrote:
I managed to practice returning serve and backhand pushing with the inverted (I basically twiddled the bat and started each point that way), and this was quite effective. I'm going to keep practising this because it's a really useful tool against low-spin players. Beat the soon-to-be England #5 Cadet 3-1 but he wasn't really playing properly (and I kept intentionally goading him, telling him he can't spin a ball etc - like the mature adult I am :D).


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

On a side note, although I have been strict on myself not to twiddle at all (except serving) to learn quicker with the pips, I did however try a few times to receive a serve with inverted BH as I have a decent banana flip receive and it caught opponents out almost every time. So I would definitely say to mix it up.

I personally am waiting for a while before I start thinking about twiddling mid game and points as I want to just get my pips shots down against everything comfortably as quickly and efficiently as possible. YOU on the other hand have been playing pips for a while so I would say definitely start making it a habbit now

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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2018, 23:27 
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Put a new topic up covering some of my recent musings: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=32591

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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2018, 07:36 
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dunc wrote:
I tried this in practice last night... it didn't go too well :D

I'm just too slow "of the mind" to twiddle effectively on each shot. I guess it's practice too, but it's not a technique issue - I can obviously twiddle no problem at all; I do so after most serves and to play backhand loops/blocks. It's more about reading the game, knowing where your opponent is going to play the ball. I do this really well against players I play against regularly but otherwise I'm pretty poor.

I managed to practice returning serve and backhand pushing with the inverted (I basically twiddled the bat and started each point that way), and this was quite effective. I'm going to keep practising this because it's a really useful tool against low-spin players. Beat the soon-to-be England #5 Cadet 3-1 but he wasn't really playing properly (and I kept intentionally goading him, telling him he can't spin a ball etc - like the mature adult I am :D).


Create a set of rules for yourself when to twiddle. Use at practice matches and then in real matches. That will help. Develop the rules and the try to do it more freely. And make sure to practice what strokes to do with wrong material at FH, that way you won’t be nervous to twiddle at the wrong moment. lso, do many drills where you only use your inverted rubber. I used to play with my son and tried not to use my ”funny” side at all )he won the point if he made me use my anti). That you can do against weake opponents. Also, try the opposite, only using pips.

Look at Simon Huth, a master of twiddeling :). Even he dies it wrong sometimes.

I have a ”minion”-quote on a phone-cover saying: I was made to be awsome, not perfect” :).

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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2018, 01:20 
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In my recent thread about strategy, 0x556c69 offered some really useful advice about his findings from his own game, and from the games he's watched with professional defenders.

We started chatting in PM and he sent me a message which resonates more than anything else I've ever discussed on OOAK - and this is a really insightful forum, so that's saying something :)

Here's the relevant part of the message in full:

Quote:
You find lots of posts saying "I can't get to defense, my opponents refuse to attack" - even from myself. Perhaps the reason is not the conscious refusal of attack from those, but the fact that us wanna-be-defenders play it wrong? That our tactics prevent them from attacking? Think of yourself. You said, you often open up the rally by looping. I'm doing it too. I'm sure, most of our opponents - especially offensive ones - would very much like to attack as much as us. It is rather that somehow we are keeping them from doing so. There can be lots of reasons for this:
- our serve is not suited to be looped - too spinny, too short
- our receive is so strong/well placed/fast/deceptive that they fear to attack it
- they can't get to it, because we do it first
...

Ok, let's assume that we found a reason, i.e. our serve is too short. What happens if we eliminate it? I guess, most of us would loose! Why? Because we can not deal with the new situation that arises! We are embossed with a pattern (is this a correct expression?) how a point has to be played. Most people think they have to dominate it - hence our attacks. If we have to defend, we are at a disadvantage - at least mentally. And bam, we attack all-in with poor preparation and - your words - "try to play a mad attacking stroke for no real reason". With the last part you are in error. There is a real reason. But the reason is not our poor defence or our inability to set up a winning topspin. It is our inability to stick to the match plan/tactics and the mistrust in statistics. Its uncertainty. You must be convinced that you are better at defense than your opponent at attack. You must believe it. You must know it. Then you will get your defensive game with an offensive opponent.

At least this is what I am convinced of after lots of thinking. I am trying to implement some of the tactics I mentioned, but it is incredibly difficult to stick to it when a match is going on, even a practice match. My focus has shifted from practising technical aspects (I still do drills, but I don't really believe they improve my game. It's mostly to increasy consistency) to trying out tactics. Of course, most of the time I fall back to my old patterns...

An example from leage encounter last week? Here it is: I had to play a friend of mine, we go along very well, but he plays my most hated D'Tecs OX pushblocker's game. I knew I had to face him, I reviewed my tactics against this style, I even sparred with another much weeker pushblocker before to get confidence and my tactics working. The day comes and at warming up it's clear, I'm in the zone, I get everything working. I won the first 2 games easily, lost one (4 lucky points for him), recovered and was up 8:4 in fourth. What happened? I tried to force the issue - for no reason at all. Instead of easily lobbing the ball in, I began hammering it at him. 8:8. Then I'm up 10:8. One of his shots clips the net, I open up with lot of topspin on the next and net his block. I loose this set 10:12. Deciding set. I promise to myself to play it cautiously. His first serve: no spin fast and long to my bh. I step around too late but still smash it - into the net. His next serve: no spin, slow, high, to my fh! Of course I try to hit a winner - it goes long. So much for my promise. See a pattern? But this day I'm really on. I am even able to come back from 1:6 to 6:6 - by playing low risk, slow balls to his pips with just a little bit of forward rotation. 6:6; him to serve. Guess what: twice slow no spin, one to bh, one to fh. I'm back 8:6. My serve: max backspin to his pips followed by fast fh topspin. I'm back 10:6. But this is my day! I get back to deuce. His serve. Have a guess. Right, no spin long to bh. But I'm on, I'm cautious, I push it back with my pips! He overestimates my backspin and the ball sails 1m high with absolutely no spin to my bh side. I am surprised, too late, try to step around, am out of position but still can't resist to smash - too long. This was not bad luck, but bad footwork, bad tactics, bad self control. I don't even remember the match point. Afterwards he comes to me and says: today you've been better than me. You had deserved to win. He is wrong. I had NOT deserved to win. Not because of my bad play or bad strokes. I deserved to loose, because I had been good prepared both mentally and tactically, had a game plan that worked, BUT DID NOT STICK TO IT TO THE END. Because at crucial moments, I let myself goad to exactly the game he likes. He moved me into doing the things he is successfull with.

Toward the end of last week I had been working hard on my defensive game. Every practice match was a dual focus - pushing, and twiddling (to push/return serve with inverted and to FH chop with LPs). I've had mixed success, beating some players I sometimes lose to and losing to players I sometimes beat. Possibly worth noting that I've slightly changed pimples too - 1mm red Curl P1-R now.

On Monday I had a league match against the third or fourth best team in our league. They're a bunch of O50 vets with somewhat unorthodox styles, two BH SP hitters/loopers and one low-spin, fast, athletic double inverted hitter/blocker. I've beaten all of these players before; good recent record against the double-inverted player in particular and only lost to one of the SP players once.

I went on first against their highest-rated player, the double-inverted guy. He doesn't put any spin on the ball but he's quick around the tables and generally blocks well. Fortunately he struggles hugely with my serves and pimples, so I managed to beat him fairly comfortably 3-0. I then went on against their second highest-rated player, a left-handed SP BH player who loops well on his FH. This is the guy I've always struggled with the most. He absolutely tore me apart, a comfortable 3-0 (although to be fair to myself, I think I psychologically threw the game after being 6-4 up in the first end and then serving off twice...). Same story with their lowest-rated player too (righty SP BH player who blocks well). I came away from the match totally despondent, furious with the way I'd played and how the matches had turned out. Beating the first player was cool, but I didn't win *well* - I didn't loop or chop him off, I just beat him with serves and tricks.

Now, if you look again at 0x556c69's PM, especially the first two paragraphs, I made *all* of the mistakes he's referring to:

  • Served too short
  • Served "too well" (heavy spin, difficult placement etc)
  • Attacked far too often and far too early
  • Didn't trust my in defensive game
  • Ignored my own advice before the game, "be patient and serve long"
  • Forgot to use the things I'd been working on, e.g. twiddling

All of these factors did one of two things: 1) stopped my opponent from playing an attacking stroke or 2) encouraged me towards unforced errors. The net result was that I played genuinely pretty horrendously and left both matches having felt like I'd given my opponent the win.

So, last night, I went to practice with two clear focuses:

  • DON'T ATTACK
  • Twiddle often, e.g. inverted for pushing and LP for chopping

Although I hadn't intended to originally, I also stopped using my heaviest-spin serves. I went for long and consistent, trying to get into a rally, rather than winning cheap points.

I only got to play against two opponents, both loopers (and both fairly prominent/solid pushers) - one of whom was the aforementioned Cadet (he ended up being ranked 6th, not 5th - shame). I still played just shy of 25 ends though so plenty of practice.

It was brilliant! I really started to get to grips with it. I was much more patient, much more confident in my defensive abilities and the biggest improvement in particular was my forehand chop. Pushing with inverted to my opponent's forehand, and lifting my wrist a little bit to get some sidespin, meant I knew that the ball was coming to my forehand - but not like a smash. I was reading the game really nicely, twiddling to the pimples and playing some effective - and most importantly confident and consistent - pimples chops. This is a massive weakness of my game turned into a strength in just one session (obviously I'll need to keep doing this in practice to get used to it).

I won about 16/17 ends, so my game hasn't suddenly hugely improved... but it felt much more in control. The points I lost tended to be from return of serve and pushing, so they're obviously still elements that I need to improve on and continue working on, but for the time being I'm happy.

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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2018, 05:28 
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This kind of post is exactly what I need for some motivation right now to get me out of this thick mud im stuck in.
I have been trying the last few training sessions to get the perfect FH loop technique so that all I need to do is speed up the stroke for more velocity.
However from me moving home to very busy shifts at work lately I finished my last training session on Tuesday absolutely disappointed and I haven't been able to get over it :headbang:
I even played match play and was so pissed off with my decisions.
This post fully puts things into perspective for me, I shall read this again before my next session on sunday which will likely be all match play

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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2018, 05:30 
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Dunc I would love to see a new YouTube vid of you with edited match play if possible. I have seen some of your vids more than once already but I want to see the new and improved you even if its just practise matches :)

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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2018, 23:03 
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I keep meaning to get some footage but it's a bit tricky.

The venue I practice at (almost exclusively this season as it's near home) is quite cramped Monday and Thursday. On a Friday there's more room but the only player who goes is my regular practice partner. He's not really in the "zone" at the moment so I don't think we'd get a particularly brilliant game to watch!

I'll do my best to grab some footage when I can, but it'll probably be once the summer season starts in a couple of months' time.

_________________
[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2018, 23:55 
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dunc wrote:
  • Served too short
  • Served "too well" (heavy spin, difficult placement etc)
    ...

Another consideration: The better your opponents are the better your service should be. You have to adjust the quality of your service to the receiving skills of your opponent. That's why pro's don't have difficulties getting into their game: all their opponents are able to attack every service anyway.

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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2018, 00:04 
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A.D.D.I.C.T.T.
A.D.D.I.C.T.T.
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Joined: 09 Nov 2012, 23:15
Posts: 1729
Location: Newcastle, UK
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Blade: BTY Innershield
FH: BTY Tenergy 80FX (1.9mm)
BH: TSP Curl P4 (1mm)
0x556c69 wrote:
dunc wrote:
  • Served too short
  • Served "too well" (heavy spin, difficult placement etc)
    ...

Another consideration: The better your opponents are the better your service should be. You have to adjust the quality of your service to the receiving skills of your opponent. That's why pro's don't have difficulties getting into their game: all their opponents are able to attack every service anyway.

This is exactly what I'm finding. If players can do too much damage against my "easy" serves, then I need to improve the quality (length, placement, spin) of serves. I don't actually find this to be a problem - most of the time at the moment I'm seriously toning down my serves, so I can easily "put them back to normal" when I have to.

Also means that against players who don't attack my easy serves, I have a way of winning key points quite easily - suddenly, after repeated low-spin "easy" serves, throw in a really heavy, short backspin serve. It's working well for me in practice.

The "easy" serves are helping my game a surprising amount though against players that I sometimes find awkward. These players can't attack my best serves, and their returns are almost entirely unpredictable - because they're just doing whatever they can to keep the ball on the table - which in turn makes it much more difficult for me to get into the type of rally I want.

I've been working hard on changing my tactics in practice matches, being much more patient, trying to almost exclusively defend (apart from sometimes 5th/7th ball loops against weaker balls) and it's working really nicely at the moment. Desperate to keep playing TT so I can keep working on it - I think it'll have a really positive impact on my game in a fairly short period of time.

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