OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Haha devo, tell me more?

Marc's such a genuinely lovely, humble and funny bloke off the table... but I've seen him be a total pr**k during a game - as the above video highlights!

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

This week I'm on the Swerve TTC training camp. A Bulgarian coach called Rostislav (LP defender who uses Giant Dragon LPs and Friendship forehand with a hard custom sponge) and then later in the week we'll be blessed with the arrival of Hannah Hicks, a top English player who is also a LP defender.

Today was incredibly hard work. Tomorrow will be even harder...

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

Barely an update recently because work has been unbelievably ridiculous. Here are a few videos from Friday and Sunday though:

Drilling with Paul


Practice match vs. Paul's teammate


Practice match vs. my coach


The three things that I'm struggling with, and trying to address, are:

• Pushing with the pimples
• Irregular chopping (i.e. chops when I'm out of position)
• Looping against heavy backspin with the slower blade

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

Just being more active with the wrist will solve your LP issues.
Can you point out in one of your videos where you have difficulties with the third point?

I haven't actually got a video of the latter because none of the players I practice against have that style of play (or are even capable of replicating that style of play).

Basically, when I was using the JSH blade, I would play a super-spinny loop and the blade's speed would generate some forward momentum which made looping against chop very easy. With the Defence Pro though, it's a lot slower (and more flexible), so I'm making a lot more mistakes against backspin than I used to.

I've got some more footage from my coaching session on pushes which I'll upload later in the week. When I do that, can you show me which of my strokes are OK and which aren't?

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

+1, when pushing you need to create more friction with wrist to control the ball, and when out of position when you can't rely on your body to do the work you have to rely on the wrist.
Aganst backspin you probaly need to go more foreward because the blade doesn't give you the power it gave you before

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My Paddle
Blade: Butterfly Defence II FL
FH: Bluegrip V1 2.0 (red)
BH: Grass D.Tecs 1.5 (black)

Yeah this is definitely the problem... but when I try to go more forward I tend to find I still net the ball, possibly because I'm closing the angle of my bat naturally or something?

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

Was thinking the same thing, but...



It might be your racket speed, though, and so again not using enough wrist while looping.

OK so I did some work with Dave yesterday on pushing... wow it was horrendous

I did a drill to replicate the kind of game I encounter quite often - inverted players pushing heavily and repeatedly into my backhand.



At 3m25s you can see Dave pushing, for the first time with my bat, not missing a push. At 4m05s you can see a comparison between our strokes.

I'd appreciate any pointers - stance, head height, stroke, timing, etc. Dave thinks I should take the ball off the bounce... but I find that quite unrealistic as in my game I'm rarely in a position to take the ball off the bounce (when coming in off a chop, etc). Or is the "push off a chop" a different stroke to "push over the table"?

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

The other question of course is... is the P1-R the right rubber for me if I can't push with it? Is it the equivalent of learning to loop with Tenergy 05?

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

I think you should hold your bat with an angle somewhere in between what you have and what your coach have. And you should wait a little longer before executing your push so that the ball is clearly falling down to your bat. That way you will be able to impart spin to the ball. Your coaches push is better if you don't want incomming spin affect your game (that is, if you are returning spinny serves with inverte, you need to take the ball right off the bounce). I think with these changes you can add a little more spin and control to your pushes. Then you might want to try to use a little less wrist moment initially, and when you have a better timing and feeling, add more wrist again. And remember, pushing with LP like that is all about placement and perhaps height, not spin. Keep practicing !

_________________
Def-attack's attempts to find balance between defence/attack | Getting better - health and game |
My Youtube

The three things that I'm struggling with, and trying to address, are:
1 Pushing with the pimples
2 Irregular chopping (i.e. chops when I'm out of position)
3 Looping against heavy backspin with the slower blade

--

Ok, a few thoughts.

For 1, if you want to take it to the next level try to not think of returning balls that bounce long as "pushes". Pushing is when you step in and double-bounce the return. Otherwise attacking or doing something positive with the ball should be on your mind. On the bh that means chopping a bit heavy, or if you don't have a grip LP it means varying placement and pace, or consistently placing it deep. If you're having inconsistency esp with grip LP it often means you're not really seeing the spin & pace clearly, and there's no "trick" for fixing that other than reading the ball more carefully.

For 2, the only real solution is to be in position more and that means reading the point/opponent/ball earlier. Higher level player are in position more often because they have those skills, and that's why they play really well. For a temporary fix it helps to have an easier to use racket. P1r is kind of grippy for an LP and not the easiest to chop in a bad positions, but be aware changing to more reversal LP has some other effects.

For 3, it's actually easier to loop backspin with slower blade, but if you're far back enough you need bit more arm speed to get faster returns. If that's the issue it brings the point of why you're returning slow shots from any distance. Step in, get under the ball and fire away.

The "good" news is that these are all genuinely harder things to fix, which means you've probably fixed the easier aspects. Mentally it helps to not be frustrated when something goes badly. It means you hit upon real weakness and it's an opportunity to get better. Of course we all like for progress to come easy but sometimes the game is genuinely hard.

Finally, try not to use much wrist. It will come naturally once you get better, but forcing the issue only makes your shots unstable. In fact in the video I watched briefly you seem to already "jerk" the chop/push a bit much which resulted in poor timing on some of those missed ones. Try to be smoother and follow through more naturally, reading the ball early will make that easier.

Thanks for all of that DA. Dave tried to get me to take the ball off the bounce but that didn't feel right with what I've seen from top defenders.

So wait for the ball, use a little bit less wrist to begin with.

I noticed that at the end of my stroke I'm doing something funny with my bat head... I'm not sure why, but I'm going to try to get rid of that.

DA do you have the facility to produce a slow-motion video? You push well with LPs, I'd love to see a slow motion replay. Or, alternatively, point me in the direction of one of your videos on YouTube and I'll do it!

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

Thank you for all of your feedback. I'm certainly not averse to working hard, so no problems there. I get frustrated with myself, but it's only because I set high standards. I've worked my way up the divisions in a fairly short period of time primarily by using my forehand loop, and I've developed a decent killer edge in terms of knowing how to win points with it. However, as a result, I haven't really spent any time learning how to push... and that's coming back to bite me now. It feels like regression, but I won't let that stop me from putting the work in. I've got a robot at home and a lot of (fairly rubbish) Kinson balls to practice my pushing against mixed spins.


This is half of my problem... I don't know when I'm using wrist and when I'm not!! I think I'll do some practice vs. the robot tonight, and try to film it, then watch it back immediately so I can see what my stroke looks like, whether I'm using wrist or not etc.

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

In this, at 3:09, I do a push right off the bounce, like your coach wants you to do. Then, at 3.22 I do a normal heavy push over the table (and then once again, a little longer from the table and with a little more force).

_________________
Def-attack's attempts to find balance between defence/attack | Getting better - health and game |
My Youtube