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PostPosted: 28 Jun 2016, 04:14 
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One-Loop Man
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dunc wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
Serve short topspin.

How do you serve short topspin? My backspin serves are super short but if I put any spin on my topspin serves at all they always kick long enough to loop. I tried this theory and, unsurprisingly, he looped it straight past me.


The first bounce on your side is closer to your end line to keep topspin short. But the real key is to get the first bounce on his side close to the net. If it is low, he needs confidence to flick it hard. You can forget about him pushing it short. I tend to serve reverse and pendulum side top short if the player lacks a forehand flick. No spin works as well, though you said he handed that well.

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PostPosted: 28 Jun 2016, 22:48 
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Joo Too
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dunc wrote:
Lorre wrote:
If he didn't have a backhand, you just gave him balls to his FH to give him a nice victory? You're a nice lad, dunc, too nice... :D Seriously: did he pivot around his BH? If he did, you can force him to do that and play in the open space. If he didn't, just play to his BH. Plus train different kind of service returns, both in depth as in height.

He's young, quick, powerful and tall with good reach. He pivoted around his backhand 9 times out of 10 and on the other occasion he gave me a "dig" push into my backhand.

I was nowhere near quick/good enough to control my chops to him. I'm not exaggerating when I say I physically missed the table when attempting to chop 75% of his loops. The ones I did get on were too high and he just lashed them straight past me. I've genuinely never had this problem in any of the matches I've played and I've played against players ranked in the top 50 in England. I know what the solution is to returning these - practice against them - but that isn't an option because, as I say, nobody I know plays with this much power and speed.

How do you train service returns? I find this very difficult. I never return my regular practice partners' serves poorly because I'm used to them. My most regular practice partner often says (wrongly) that he thinks my service receive is one of the best parts of my game because of this. This lad's serves though I'd never encountered before (he's changed them significantly since I last played him) and I've never really seen similar serves when playing against other players either. I was nonplussed.


What I read in your responses is that you weren't good enough and you need to train more on this and that. I suspect that's the key to defeating this opponent: just getting better at this and that. But get especially better at service return: that's the key to almost every walking over of the opponent. Make sure you have enough return options to dismantle the opponent's strategy.

How do you train service return? Quite easy. Just say to your practice partner: "Give me this kind of spin to this place." and you try a new stroke. Or you try a new stroke when returning serve in doubles - you know in what half the serve will end, limiting the placement of the ball.


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PostPosted: 28 Jun 2016, 23:49 
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A.D.D.I.C.T.T.
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BH: TSP Curl P4 (1mm)
Lorre wrote:
What I read in your responses is that you weren't good enough and you need to train more on this and that. I suspect that's the key to defeating this opponent: just getting better at this and that. But get especially better at service return: that's the key to almost every walking over of the opponent. Make sure you have enough return options to dismantle the opponent's strategy.

Oh yeah, no doubt - I know I need to improve against this specific type of play but it's very hard to do that when nobody I've ever practised against plays like this with as much power and speed.

The main reason I asked on here was to make sure I wasn't missing anything, strategy-wise, that could've given me a bit of an advantage here. I also wanted to see how the better players on OOAK would've coped with him.

Lorre wrote:
How do you train service return? Quite easy. Just say to your practice partner: "Give me this kind of spin to this place." and you try a new stroke. Or you try a new stroke when returning serve in doubles - you know in what half the serve will end, limiting the placement of the ball.

It's really easy when I know what's coming though :( And within probably 10 or 20 serves I stop having any problems returning the ball. Then I get into a game against a similar serve (but perhaps different motion or different sidespin or something) and struggle again. Hmmm. One to think about.

_________________
[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2016, 02:26 
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dunc wrote:
It's really easy when I know what's coming though :( And within probably 10 or 20 serves I stop having any problems returning the ball. Then I get into a game against a similar serve (but perhaps different motion or different sidespin or something) and struggle again. Hmmm. One to think about.


Are you playing the TTEdge app?

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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2016, 03:39 
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dunc wrote:
I also wanted to see how the better players on OOAK would've coped with him.


We probably would have forfeited the game because we didn't want to lose our OOAK reputation. :D

dunc wrote:
It's really easy when I know what's coming though :( And within probably 10 or 20 serves I stop having any problems returning the ball. Then I get into a game against a similar serve (but perhaps different motion or different sidespin or something) and struggle again. Hmmm. One to think about.


Do you know what's coming to you? That's the first question you need to ask yourself. If that's a "no", you need to learn to read serves better. If it's a "yes", then you might not be able to read the serve quick enough. If that's the case, practice a certain routine when returning serve which you can rely on and make that routine automatic.
It might have something to do with the positioning of your feet when returning serve.
Do you make your return with full commitment?
It might be you need glasses. :lol:
...

There's so much that can be the reason. Experiment, preferably in training, if not in the match itself, even if that means you lose the game. You'll have an AHA moment sooner or later.


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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2016, 03:40 
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You don't have a video of the game? Might make things a lot easier.


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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2016, 07:48 
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Lorre wrote:
dunc wrote:
Lorre wrote:
If he didn't have a backhand, you just gave him balls to his FH to give him a nice victory? You're a nice lad, dunc, too nice... :D Seriously: did he pivot around his BH? If he did, you can force him to do that and play in the open space. If he didn't, just play to his BH. Plus train different kind of service returns, both in depth as in height.

He's young, quick, powerful and tall with good reach. He pivoted around his backhand 9 times out of 10 and on the other occasion he gave me a "dig" push into my backhand.

I was nowhere near quick/good enough to control my chops to him. I'm not exaggerating when I say I physically missed the table when attempting to chop 75% of his loops. The ones I did get on were too high and he just lashed them straight past me. I've genuinely never had this problem in any of the matches I've played and I've played against players ranked in the top 50 in England. I know what the solution is to returning these - practice against them - but that isn't an option because, as I say, nobody I know plays with this much power and speed.

How do you train service returns? I find this very difficult. I never return my regular practice partners' serves poorly because I'm used to them. My most regular practice partner often says (wrongly) that he thinks my service receive is one of the best parts of my game because of this. This lad's serves though I'd never encountered before (he's changed them significantly since I last played him) and I've never really seen similar serves when playing against other players either. I was nonplussed.


What I read in your responses is that you weren't good enough and you need to train more on this and that. I suspect that's the key to defeating this opponent: just getting better at this and that. But get especially better at service return: that's the key to almost every walking over of the opponent. Make sure you have enough return options to dismantle the opponent's strategy.

How do you train service return? Quite easy. Just say to your practice partner: "Give me this kind of spin to this place." and you try a new stroke. Or you try a new stroke when returning serve in doubles - you know in what half the serve will end, limiting the placement of the ball.

Depth. Depth is key. And if he is blasting is past you even when you white line it you are simply moving too slow :P

If you drop it short and are expecting to get into a chopping rally you are effectively moving the rally further away from a chopping. If he gives it to you short control his angles wide to the back hand (he's weak there right?) And get ready to chop. If he gives you a weak ball then counter it.

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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2016, 21:51 
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Blade: BTY Innershield
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BH: TSP Curl P4 (1mm)
Thanks for the input everyone. I think the bottom line points at 2 problems:

1) Return of serve (and control of 3rd ball pushes) was weak - need to be work on those to get them much deeper. I don't think I got 1 push on the white line
2) Speed of movement away from the table against powerful loops

#2 is a bit tricky for me to practice but #1 I think I can work on.

_________________
[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


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PostPosted: 29 Jun 2016, 21:52 
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BH: TSP Curl P4 (1mm)
My next problem can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=68&t=30020

For about 3 weeks now I've been getting fairly severe pain across my knuckles, to the point where I'm having to rub my knuckles after every point. Pain dissipates overnight but does last the full evening.

_________________
[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2016, 22:18 
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Blog looks good-ill start from the beginning.Hows the winter season?

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PostPosted: 18 Nov 2016, 20:59 
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A.D.D.I.C.T.T.
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BH: TSP Curl P4 (1mm)
Over the summer I think I burnt myself out a bit. I played in the Summer league and Captained a team, which meant being responsible for opening/closing the venue, getting a team out, etc. At the same time I was really getting back into golf and to be honest I just didn't want to play table tennis at all.

I actually did quite well early on in the season but struggled to concentrate and towards the end I lost all motivation. So, I took a month off, then clawed myself back for the first weekend of British League.

This season in British League I'm playing with some local league friends/teammates. My regular teammate Lee is playing, plus his brother Dean, as well as young up-and-comer Peter who's playing very well at the moment. We also have the legendary Chun Yin Yu who's a really good player (as you can see here, he beat Andy Wilkinson last season - Andy is featured in one of my videos on page 34 of this blog I believe). In terms of a USATT rating I'd expect he'd be 2200 minimum, possibly higher. Unfortunately Chun was still in Hong Kong for our first weekend of British League but he's back now and will play the rest of the games.

peterpong wrote:
Blog looks good-ill start from the beginning.Hows the winter season?

After my month off, I was fairly poor. Had just 3 practice sessions before British League then played my first Winter season league match the following day.

I was slowly but surely getting back into the swing of things, until I snapped my Defence Pro :o I was playing at Cramlington and one side of the court there's a big net dividing the hall between matches and practice. My opponent smashed the ball, I swung my bat over my head to try and return it. Bat got caught in the net somehow and when I went to swing forward, it snapped clean in half at the handle! Half of my bat flew across the room, handle was still stuck in my hand :D

To my dismay, I rang my local Butterfly supplier only to find out they don't make the Defence Pro now. I ordered instead the Defence IV. I also took the opportunity to replace my forehand rubber, moving from 05FX to 80FX but I kept my 0.5mm P1-R on the backhand.

Until last weekend, I've been using this setup... and my results in the winter league have been shocking. I've had some really quite bad results, losing to players who I've comfortably beaten in the past, and I just couldn't work out why. I felt like it was a concentration thing, making a lot of small mistakes.

Last weekend we played our second round of British League. First day, I played poorly. Second day, in the morning, I played poorly. I got some wins against weak players but lost badly to a couple of more challenging players. On the night of the first day, I borrowed some "special glue" from one of the lads to bring my old Hurricane 3 setup back to life. Joo Saehyuk blade (ST), Hurricane 3 (black topsheet, orange prov #39deg sponge) and Curl P1-R (red topsheet, ~1.5mm max thickness sponge).

On a whim, feeling a bit frustrated and wanting to see what the glue did to the rubber, I wheeled this new (old) setup out over lunch to have a knock with it. I wasn't overly enamoured with the forehand in truth. It didn't feel glued at all, didn't make the nice "click" I wanted and frankly I suspect the stuff I borrowed was just normal glue :lol: It definitely wasn't quicker than my 80FX. The pimples on the other hand...

I was on first for my next game - I was playing as our team's #2 and I had to play the #1 of the team who are currently 2nd in our division. I didn't expect to be able to win, so I decided to give my old setup a run out. In short, I felt like a different player. Those "small mistakes" I was making just didn't occur at all. It wasn't concentration and I've learnt since that it wasn't just the psychologically positive effects of using a new set up - it was the pimples. The thicker sponge just works for me over the table. I do find it harder when chopping heavy spin but that's entirely irrelevant because with thinner sponge setups I make so many mistakes over the table that I can't be competitive even if I do get to the rally. Also, I find it much easier to chop low-spin balls with the thicker sponge.

In the end I lost that game... 10-12, 16-14, 10-12, 10-12. ARRGGH!!! :lol: I'm usually quite a strong player in deuce situations but when it came down to it, I couldn't rely on my forehand because the Hurricane 3 felt very different to my 80FX. I usually like to throw in a topspin serve and third ball attack when it's tight but I ended up trying to defend because I didn't feel confident doing that.

I then went on to lose the next game 9 in the 5th - very similar situation! Couldn't use my forehand to save my life but the pimples were really rock solid. That's fine though - getting used to the forehand rubber will take a bit of time.

The difference is just the grip that I can get with the thicker sponge, I guess. The combination of the Defence IV and the thin-sponged P1-R is just horrible for my game. To play that setup I think you'd need to roll/block the ball back (like an OX setup) rather than an orthodox push. With the JSH and 1.5mm P1-5 I can return serve better and my pushing is 1000% better. No longer do I panic every time the ball gets pushed with either heavy spin or no spin. I'm going to keep playing with this for the rest of the season and see how my results fare.

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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2016, 00:13 
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im sure a defence pro sold on e bay last week for £40.it did mention that they had discontinued the model.
I know a coach who sources blades for people and he says that even the same makes can feel different.

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Day -by-day inhalation of the speed glues is not any good for health..


skilless_slapper wrote:
Damn, she was breaking that ass down! :rofl:
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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2016, 20:08 
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A.D.D.I.C.T.T.
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BH: TSP Curl P4 (1mm)
I haven't recorded myself playing TT for a while so I thought I'd see what my technique looks like these days.




My forehand technique has evolved from a ridiculously long, straight-armed backswing to this fairly compact-looking thing. I'm not sure I like either! I think I'd prefer to have a bit more backswing...

My stance is a bit better but it's still too upright and my knees aren't bent enough. Strange thing is, when I was recording this video, I felt like I was specifically getting super-low... but I'm not. Need to work on my quads if I want to be able to get lower and stay lower.

_________________
[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2016, 20:33 
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You FH look like very powerful with nice footwork and it has potential for much higher level play... but on the other hand I am quessing if the equipment is too fast/uncontrolled for stable looping in tight real game situations.

Your BH chopping looks far more natural with faster swing speed than in earlier years. You might bend your knees more while chopping. I am not sure if your chopping is steady enough to stand against good attack and spin variations though.

So, you are in good drilling shape against predictable balls with fastish equipment, but does pay (in the short run) to get you more wins in league matches? 8)


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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2016, 21:04 
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Thanks Roy :)

I can pretty much exactly tell you where I struggle in matches:

  • I miss far too many kill shots. I actually spoke to the guys from PingSkills about this recently because it's starting to get so infuriating! If I serve short and the ball pops up short (especially when it comes into my backhand corner), I regularly loop off the end of the table. This shouldn't be an issue, but it happens regularly, and costs me ends
  • I struggle with low-spin loops to my backhand, often netting these off my pimples. I'm getting a bit better at this, I've definitely made progress with it recently, but it still happens too often. Sometimes when I do get the ball over the net, it's still too short and very ineffective against good players
  • My forehand side off the table is generally still a weakness at the moment. Against a medium-spin, medium-speed ball, I'm really quite effective at counter-looping and I win a lot of points this way. I'm also quite good at picking these balls to be aggressive with. However, against fast balls or super-spinny balls, I end up trying to fish... and this isn't an effective shot against good players, not at all. This weekend against the 2nd best player in the league, he was able to get far too much speed/width on my fished returns meaning I would have to jump over a barrier to return the ball
  • My pushing has generally improved lately too, especially having changed back to the thick-sponged P1-R, but I still make too many mistakes with it. My forehand push is now fairly robust but sometimes when I'm rushing in to push with the pimples I'll push into the net. I'm finding that a loosened grip helps *enormously* here so I'm working on bringing that into my game

Some players just go through me like a dose of salt. Players with good serves, a strong loop and the ability to play a strong forehand loop from their backhand corner will nearly always beat me 3-0. This happened twice on Sunday when I played British League and happened once last BL weekend. It has happened once in the local league which I think I mentioned somewhere else in this post.

It'll be a long time before I can compete with those players. My forehand side has to get better but most importantly my serve receive has to improve greatly. It doesn't matter how quick or consistent I am if I'm popping serves up for a looper to lash past me. I'm not concentrating on these players in the near future, I'll worry about them later - and to be honest, I think as my serve receive gets better, I'll start to be more competitive with them even if they can still put balls past me.

_________________
[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
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My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


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