OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
Live Table Tennis Videos Table Tennis News Live OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 27 Apr 2018, 02:54


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 873 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 59  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2014, 03:54 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 03 Apr 2013, 12:39
Posts: 248
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 9 times
go back to LP/inverted combo. Learn to twiddle. Practice. Practice. Practice. Practice. Prosper :D

_________________
VKM
Tenergy 05 2.1
Feint Long III .5


Top
 Profile  
 


Don't want to see this advertisement? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!

PostPosted: 20 Mar 2014, 00:08 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 15 Aug 2012, 22:24
Posts: 368
Location: Lincoln, NE (USA)
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 27 times
Lordcope,

Sounds like to me you're a pretty adapt type of player. Maybe it's good athleticism or something to that effect but you must be capable of playing multiple styles. It can be a good thing and a curse all at the same time.

Got to quit switching IMO. This is pretty rich coming from me. Self admitted EJ. But as an EJ, I can relate in how there's no such thing as the perfect setup. Whatever you choose in one aspect makes another suffer. So stop looking for that perfect setup.

I agree with townhouse. Go with inverted/LP combo. I've been playing that for a little while and love the variety it brings. Furthermore if you get good at twiddling, you have a lot of different styles at your disposal.

Your story of hitting with the guys duel inverted blade made me think of a theory I've recently discovered.....

About a month ago, I was playing the best table tennis I ever have. Played LP with my cheap inverted tacky rubber. Then I made the mistake of having a hit with my buddies Tenergy. There's something dangerous about hitting with new equipment and quickly forming an opinion. All of a sudden you're on a high trying something new & exciting. You think it's the rubbers or blade (I'm sure the Tenergy is superior but not important for the sake of this point) but I suspect it's largely based on the endorphins you're getting from something new. All of a sudden you're not afraid of missing shots, you're testing what the rubber can fully do. You feel like you can't miss.

This put me in a funk with my inverted game thinking I need something better. Long story short, I switched around inverted rubbers some and my attacking game has suffered. I am now back to the equipment I know and trying to get it back. What a waste of time I just down down the last month.

I once herd someone on this board say "don't switch equipment unless you have good reason to." and truer words have never been spoken.

You don't have to commit to having whatever setup you choose forever. Just make a deal with yourself that you won't change equipment for 6 months. This way you can start to see the fruits of your labor as you really figure out what you can do.

_________________
Stiga Clipper Classic
FH - TSP Spectol Red 2.0
BH - Dawei 388D-a 1.5


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2014, 04:17 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 05 Feb 2012, 19:52
Posts: 730
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 21 times
Blade: TT Piet Homemade 6 ply
FH: Tibhar Evolution MXP Max
BH: Tibhar Grass DTecs 0x
I'm still thinking along the lines that having significant spin and speed differences between your 2 rubbers allows you to create a wide variety of balls, hopefully some of which any given opponent will have trouble with, and at the same time give you flexibility returning their balls...

Another possibility along those lines is a SP/LP setup, the LP giving maximum reversal, the SP playing more normally (perhaps hardbat). Add some twiddling and it would be tricky to play against.

_________________
--- Push/Chop or Attack ---
USATT xxxx Lost it all by playing before recovered.
Blade: TTPiet OFF-/ALL custom
FH: Tibhar Evolution MXP Max
BH: Tibhar Grass DTecs 0X Long Pips


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2014, 08:23 
Offline
LP Collector
LP Collector
User avatar

Joined: 01 Aug 2012, 06:57
Posts: 1942
Location: Hampshire, UK
Has thanked: 274 times
Been thanked: 247 times
Blade: Donic Appelgren Allplay
FH: Donic Bluestorm Z2 2.1mm
BH: Donic Bluestorm Z2 2.1mm
Thanks guys - useful thoughts.

I completely agree that there's something magical about a new bit of kit - even if it's something you borrowed for 5 mins. There's something about the change that makes you feel more confident, and suddenly you can do amazing things you couldn't do before. It's that feedback/reward cycle that makes the whole EJ trap so addictive.

The traditional LP/Inv combo does make the most sense, I can see. I've been compiling a list, offline, of what I really think, so I can explicitly state it - I'll publish it when it's done.

One of things most on my mind is the whole coaching/training thing. It seems like a good idea to join in for the coaching, but doing so with anything non-standard is pretty disruptive. Maybe I just forget about training, and just practice with friends and team mates?

Few days off now, as I've got family commitments, but with any luck, I'll get a knock on Friday.

More soon.

_________________
"When one eye is fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the Way."

Read my blog: "LordCope's Latest Learnings Log": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24452


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2014, 09:27 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 05 Feb 2012, 19:52
Posts: 730
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 21 times
Blade: TT Piet Homemade 6 ply
FH: Tibhar Evolution MXP Max
BH: Tibhar Grass DTecs 0x
IMO, it would be sort of silly to expect their coaching to help you (and a waste of everyone's time) if NEITHER piece of rubber on your blade can do the shots they are teaching.

I guess the determining factor there is whether or not what they are teaching will help your game, and whether or not its worth conforming at least partially or whether you'd rather just hack thru the jungle alone with the help of what video examples you can find.

Either way, I think you'll be better off finding a setup that is at least "tolerable" for YOU, and then playing with it long enough to really get used to it, or to where you find it just ISN'T tolerable. I have friends that have been thru similar dilemmas and the really odd setups (Dr Evil on both sides of a Yasaka Extra was one of them) ended up by the wayside after horrendous loss ratios at tournaments. That particular friend is doing better now, after going to a INV/LP setup, but so far has only recovered 1/3 of the rating points he lost. He also enjoyed playing the very odd setup, but eventually, the losses got to where it just wasn't so much fun getting beat so often.

_________________
--- Push/Chop or Attack ---
USATT xxxx Lost it all by playing before recovered.
Blade: TTPiet OFF-/ALL custom
FH: Tibhar Evolution MXP Max
BH: Tibhar Grass DTecs 0X Long Pips


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2014, 11:23 
Online
The EJ's Boogyman
The EJ's Boogyman
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010, 12:20
Posts: 2505
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 141 times
LordCope wrote:
I completely agree that there's something magical about a new bit of kit - even if it's something you borrowed for 5 mins. There's something about the change that makes you feel more confident, and suddenly you can do amazing things you couldn't do before. It's that feedback/reward cycle that makes the whole EJ trap so addictive.

The traditional LP/Inv combo does make the most sense, I can see. I've been compiling a list, offline, of what I really think, so I can explicitly state it - I'll publish it when it's done.

LordCope, there is nothing magical about a new kit, its just a bat. Any ideas you have that the new bat magically enables you to do amazing things is just a placebo effect. If you train in a disciplined manner for a decent period of time you will be able to do amazing things with ANY bat. Just learn to play first and only then worry about what sort of bat suits you.

LordCope wrote:
So... what did I learn?

2) Against strong spin, either in play or on serve, I really struggle with the double inverted.
3) With the double inverted I play much more aggressively, which doesn't seem to suit my temperament.
8 ) I largely enjoyed playing the double LP game.


With (2): This is a common issue with people starting out. There is no magic fix. You simply need to practice until you can handle spin - all it requires is time and effort. Have a look at the stronger players at your club - they learnt to handle spin, you can too.

With (3): If you choose to play with double inverted then you dont have to be uber aggressive. You can play an allround or defensive game if you like. Your rubber doesnt move you arm, you do! :)

With (8) : If you plan on playing TT for the long term you have to decide whether you will also enjoy losing with double LP. On the whole double LP can be very limiting and is generally very easy to play against. Also, because you can't produce any meaningful spin variation yourself and because you are limited with the shots you can perform, playing with double LP can be quite boring after a while.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2014, 15:00 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 16 Nov 2012, 15:21
Posts: 998
Location: Canada
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 42 times
LC you bring up all the issues that I have faced in the last decade. One of which is what are your objectives?Silly question eh? For me, my goals have become more realistic over time ie that I will probably not make the national squad today or even in the near future, even with lessons and practicing 8 days a week... so I just enjoy being, at the very least, a strong recreational player that enjoys a competent effective LP/LP game. Others have correctly pointed out the potential to improve your game is best served with the contrasting rubbers and I agree but I choose to win my medals here and now (at a lower level), BUT if you have long term goals and time to practice, and the dedication, then that's a different story. And I would agrue thateven with a LP/LP setup that there is always a journey to some higher level of mastery, but perhaps in smaller increments and over a longer time but there are very good, high level double lpers for us to look up to. Good hunting.

_________________
A big bag full of blades and long pimples, donuts and coffee!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2014, 15:30 
Offline
LP Collector
LP Collector
User avatar

Joined: 01 Aug 2012, 06:57
Posts: 1942
Location: Hampshire, UK
Has thanked: 274 times
Been thanked: 247 times
Blade: Donic Appelgren Allplay
FH: Donic Bluestorm Z2 2.1mm
BH: Donic Bluestorm Z2 2.1mm
Some interesting observations... thanks.

First - Carbonman - I was being flippant when I talked about the magic of new kit. I think I was saying exactly what you were saying - the magic is the placebo effect!

OMS - I can absolutely see the point of keeping a difference between FH/BH to allow maximum mixing of speed, spin, angle etc. Given that oftentimes the defender's art is deception, variety is very important.

I'm interested in the suggestion that I could opt for Dr Evil instead of a LP on the other side of the inverted. The main thing I value in my OX LP is spin reversal - it wins me points against lesser players, and when combined with twiddling allows me to do things like block or push an underspin shot, returning topspin, which when returned pops up allowing me to twiddle and attack, or hit with the opposite side. I find it somewhat less effective for chopping, but still effective. By contrast, Dr Evil has better control and can be used more universally but has much less spin reversal. Both are good for service return, being relatively unaffected by incoming spin themselves.

I had a bit of a breakthrough idea yesterday (in the bath!). I'm pretty much of the view that an inverted/LP (or Dr Evil) combo is the right one to STICK WITH. It gives maximum flexbility, and with twiddling you really get two blades for the price of one. My main objections were:

1) Training with the rest of the players without an inv/inv combo is painful. I like training, and I think it benefits my game.
2) I love the feel of the hardbat - its just fun and the feedback is delicious.

The answer of course... bear with me... is to have all three, viz:

- Setup 1 (training) - Tibhar Defence Plus, 2 x 729 FX Supersoft 2.0mm
- Setup 2 (hardbat) - Tibhar Defence Plus, 2 x Dr Evil
- Setup 3 (main setup) - Tibhar Defence Plus, 729 FX Supersoft 2.0mm // Dr Evil

That way I am always practicing one half of my main setup. In training I'm practicing against spin, and for more assertive shots, that I will use on my FH anyway, and on my BH when I twiddle. On days when I fancy, or if I played in a hardbat tournament, I would use the 2 x Dr Evil, which would be training for my BH anyway, or FH if I twiddled.

I have only two thoughts remaining:

a) Is 729 Super FX the ideal? I've used it consistently this season, and liked it. But I'm open to the Submarine Chop or Reflectoid, or the Geospin Tacky, but with less sponge. Frankly I suspect it doesn't matter. I like the 729 FX Supersoft, and there's no compelling need to change it... changing would simply open a new can of worms.
b) Should I go with the Dr Evil or OX LP. The advantage of the Dr Evil is the above plan. I could do the same plan with OX LP, and never enter a real hardbat tournament where 2 x LP would not be permitted, so the 'hardbat' options would be a 2 x LP option, as beloved by Timeout, but potentially limiting. Kinda pointless given that my main weapon would be the combo.

I think I'm close to an answer... depending on whether the Dr Evil works well as an alternative to the LP on the main setup.

Thoughts?

_________________
"When one eye is fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the Way."

Read my blog: "LordCope's Latest Learnings Log": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24452


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2014, 15:35 
Offline
Dark Knight
Dark Knight
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2006, 12:34
Posts: 31829
Location: Adelaide, AU
Has thanked: 1588 times
Been thanked: 1068 times
Blade: Trinity Carbon
FH: Victas VS > 401
BH: Dornenglanz OX
I think you've outlined the pros and cons of Dr Evil vs LP pretty well. The next step would be to simply try it and compare, see which suits you better.

_________________
OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2014, 22:17 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 03 Apr 2013, 12:39
Posts: 248
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 9 times
I think you are coming to your senses! :up:

I do find the 3 bat idea intriguing, but I think if you do the inverted drills with the other players you should use your main bat and just twiddle, easier said than done, but overtime your twiddling will improve dramatically. Also, hititng with a bat with 2 sides inverted is going to be heavier and play differently than a inv/combo. Better to just get use to one bat, despite the racket covering being the same, they still wont play the same

Also, I understand that you like the hardbat, but maybe you should try some grippy LP in OX (or MP?). They might feel alot more like the Dr. Evil and give you more of the benefits of LP. just a thought.

Concerning the 729, I have no real experience with so I cannot say.

_________________
VKM
Tenergy 05 2.1
Feint Long III .5


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2014, 07:59 
Offline
LP Collector
LP Collector
User avatar

Joined: 01 Aug 2012, 06:57
Posts: 1942
Location: Hampshire, UK
Has thanked: 274 times
Been thanked: 247 times
Blade: Donic Appelgren Allplay
FH: Donic Bluestorm Z2 2.1mm
BH: Donic Bluestorm Z2 2.1mm
townhousecrackers wrote:
I think you are coming to your senses! :up:


Gradually :)

Quote:
I do find the 3 bat idea intriguing, but I think if you do the inverted drills with the other players you should use your main bat and just twiddle, easier said than done, but overtime your twiddling will improve dramatically.


Yes I can see that being an approach. As you say, easier said than done, and last training session when I tried it interfered with ny rhythm so much I got relegated to the bottom group and ended up practicing with complete beginners, which wasn't a great outcome.

Quote:
Also, hititng with a bat with 2 sides inverted is going to be heavier and play differently than a inv/combo. Better to just get use to one bat, despite the racket covering being the same, they still wont play the same


Hrm, I can see that, yes... :^)

Quote:
Also, I understand that you like the hardbat, but maybe you should try some grippy LP in OX (or MP?). They might feel alot more like the Dr. Evil and give you more of the benefits of LP. just a thought.


What qualifies as a grippy LP? I had a look through the archives, and it seemed that P1R or Octopus or FL2 fit the bill. I tend to try to opt for much cheaper Chinese rubbers... purely on a matter of budget - so 755 or 837 or something of that ilk. Is there a non-expensive grippy LP? Re:MP.. something like C7 maybe?

_________________
"When one eye is fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the Way."

Read my blog: "LordCope's Latest Learnings Log": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24452


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2014, 08:11 
Offline
LP Collector
LP Collector
User avatar

Joined: 01 Aug 2012, 06:57
Posts: 1942
Location: Hampshire, UK
Has thanked: 274 times
Been thanked: 247 times
Blade: Donic Appelgren Allplay
FH: Donic Bluestorm Z2 2.1mm
BH: Donic Bluestorm Z2 2.1mm
Training tonight....

I hadn't had a chance to put into action the new plan, so I decided to stick with the Bomb/Skyline/Geospin combo for today. Started of with a knock against one of the juniors that I've played a number of times. He's really improving, so if I can keep pace with him, it shows good improvement for me. I think I have a 2-1 lead in competitive matches, but in recent training matches he's had the edge. We stared with just knocking about, and I was pretty pleased with my touch and shots. He spins the ball a great deal, but mostly sidespin and topspin, so no trouble for me. It's chops I find hard to deal with with this combo. Next we played a match, which I won 2-1. He got rather discouraged and played badly in the third game, but still I felt I played well.

Next we worked on serves and third ball attacks. We had to serve short with side, and the opponent had to push with soft hands or dig deep to the FH. EIther way the server had to attack the third ball. We took it in turns to serve for about 7 mins. I think I'd have found this interesting to do with twiddling, as I quite often serve with inverted and then twiddle, but given that I had to attack every ball for the exercise sometimes this meant a BH flick or FH drive, and twiddling would have meant having to do the flick with OX LP, which is a different shot altogether. Then we had to mix in a longer side spin serve, aiming for the far corner of the BH court, from the FH, and intergrate this with shorter serves. Again, about 10 mins each. Finally we played a match up to 11, which I won 11-3.

We ended by playing 'hotseat', in which a team of 6 played a team of 6, one serve each, and the loser of the point had to sit out, and if his team lost a second point, that loser was out of the game. We played this for a while, which was kinda fun.

On the whole I felt it was a worthwhile practice, even if under competitive conditions I rarely go for a third ball attack, the serving and returning practice was good, and it improved my confidence around attacking pushed balls.

_________________
"When one eye is fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the Way."

Read my blog: "LordCope's Latest Learnings Log": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24452


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2014, 10:23 
Offline
LP Collector
LP Collector
User avatar

Joined: 01 Aug 2012, 06:57
Posts: 1942
Location: Hampshire, UK
Has thanked: 274 times
Been thanked: 247 times
Blade: Donic Appelgren Allplay
FH: Donic Bluestorm Z2 2.1mm
BH: Donic Bluestorm Z2 2.1mm
Well, sometimes decisions are made for one by chance circumstance. I'd already decided on the final course of action to put an end to EJ tinkering and get on with the game. I had a couple of unresolved questions, viz:

1) Which inverted rubber should I standardise on
2) Should I use Dr Evil or LP

I was keen to get the setup organised quickly before I had more chance to change my mind, and in time for practice next week, and conceivably a match tomorrow. I was also keen not to spend too much extra cash.

The jury was out on (2), and I felt this was probably a case where comparing and contrasting might be worthwhile, but I was mindful of the idea of a middle way, and I recalled coach mentioning he'd worked with a few players at a pretty high level who used DHS C7 on the BH, and that he had some kicking about if I was interested. I popped round and grabbed a sheet on red OX, and while I was at it picked up a few sheets of PF4 at a bargain price, and decided the decision was made!

Back home, cleared and cleaned 2 x Tibhar Defence Plus, and onto one went PF4 & C7 and onto the other went 2 x PF4. They're sitting under heavy books now, ready for tomorrow.

So... you stand as my witness. My unchanging setup is PF4 and C7 for main use, with 2 x PF4 for training with the rest of the double inverted gang. I'll keep my Dr Evil hardbat for fun and for the purpose of entering a hardbat tournament at some stage.

If it all goes wrong with C7 (and I don't really see why it would) I'll grab another Tibhar Defence Plus, whack PF4 on one side, and go back to Sanwei code, or Spinlord DG - both of which I have hanging around in black OX now. Then I can test and see. But really I want to get out of that whole: "if it doesn't work I'll change the kit" mentality. As coach pointed out - top players throughout the world have played a solid defensive game with PF4/C7, and it's a solid platform to build on and learn with.

So final match of the winter season tomorrow, and I'm going to take the plunge and play with the PF4/C7 combo. I'll report back!

_________________
"When one eye is fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the Way."

Read my blog: "LordCope's Latest Learnings Log": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24452


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2014, 13:55 
Online
The EJ's Boogyman
The EJ's Boogyman
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010, 12:20
Posts: 2505
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 141 times
Good to hear LC but...don't use the dual inverted for training. Just use your regular bat and use the inverted on the BH side if you need to BH block etc.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2014, 16:33 
Offline
LP Collector
LP Collector
User avatar

Joined: 01 Aug 2012, 06:57
Posts: 1942
Location: Hampshire, UK
Has thanked: 274 times
Been thanked: 247 times
Blade: Donic Appelgren Allplay
FH: Donic Bluestorm Z2 2.1mm
BH: Donic Bluestorm Z2 2.1mm
Up early to trim the rubbers, and a quick hit on the rubbish table before breakfast. First impressions:

- PF4 is very slow for pushes and chops - needs more energy than I expected
- C7 seems very nice - very consistent, no disturbance, not much spin reversal, but good solid control, not too responsive to spin, but capable of generating spin.
- C7 on the FH is pretty nice too.

I'm looking forward to its real outing tonight.

_________________
"When one eye is fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the Way."

Read my blog: "LordCope's Latest Learnings Log": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24452


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 873 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 59  Next



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2012 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group




Don't forget to 'LIKE' our forum on Facebook if you enjoy the content: