OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Great to hear, Japsican. As encouragement, I would like to provide the wise words of William Henzell (which he used when contrasting how people who use very fast blades vs. people who use slower offensive blades).

"...some players find success in being very very good at a few shots. So it really depends on what direction you want your game to go in..."

Whenever you feel the need to change, just remember this statement and practice being better at the few things you already do if learning a new thing doesn't seem to be working by itself. You don't need to be able to play every shot to play well (take this from someone who has no clue how to chop, fish or lob).

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

League today. I beat a 1500 level attacker, lost to a 1600 level looper, and beat another 1600 player. My record today was 6-1 round robin format. Felt really good. It's really mentally freeing to not be always eyeing another pip, or second guessing my equipment. I didn't think about how my pips were playing for the first time in a long time, I just "played." I felt really comfortable. When I'm playing well, I liken the feeling to dancing very well, you just do it.

My BH chop continue to be the go-to stroke for me, but my loops have really returned since returning to my old forehand rubber, the Vega Europe. I got a lot of comments about how "spinny" the loop was, because I was getting a lot of long blocked balls today. Interestingly, I feel the rubber isn't spinny enough, but I guess I have adapted to it to the point to where my stroke really brings it out of a rubber that is often referred to as a "controlled" rubber that isn't spin-senstive. I really do like the Europe, and it's really helped me develop my stroke.
Side note: the rubber is starting to fall apart, and while I swore not to EJ, I may actually be forced to buy a newer version of the same rubber...which doesn't count. I'm going to stick with the old sheet until it disintegrates.

The BH chops with the 755 continue to be very grippy, and spin-sensitive. Perhaps a little too much so. Really spinny loops will pop-up if you have a less-than-perfect stroke that isn't full and confident. (Keep in mind that I'm comparing it to P-1R 1.0mm, which I find less spin-sensitive). However when you really nail a chop...LOOK OUT! Tons of backspin. I continue to attack with the rubber well, but today the ol' banana flick was just not working. I couldn't miss with this stroke last week, but this week I only landed maybe 2 of 10 attempts.

Today my partner didn't show up early so I had nobody to practice chops with today. I still intend on getting some footage sometime if I can.

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Blog: "Holy Chtchet!" ⇝

Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

One of the simplest ways to avoid thinking this way is to ask yourself whether a 2000 level player with your style/equipment would lose to you because he used 755 to chop instead of P-1r. Or look at the flipside - would you lose to yourself from a year or two ago when you were lower rated in a chopping match because your old self is using P-1r and your current self is using 755?

Eventually, you'll realize that your chopping technique, as it becomes more advanced, will produce better quality balls no matter what you use because handling spin is largely technique, no matter what you use. And you will handle spinnier loops no matter what you use. And the 25 or 50 pts that using one pimple may or may not get you is less important than the 100-200 pts that better chopping technique will.

My looping and blocking technique on both sides has progressed so much that I can give my 1800 version of myself Tenergy 05 and my current self Dawei XP and my 1800 version still won't stand a chance - in fact, I wonder if my 1800 version of myself can return my current serves.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Thank you Next! I always appreciate your thoughts. I hope you aren't misinterpreting what I was saying there. I was simply describing the difference in the rubber and the adjustment I am having to make. Don't read this as me being tempted in any way to change pips. I'm absolutely not. In fact, I'm relieved by not having to think about equipment for a year (or more).

So far, I'm loving the 755, but the chopping adjustment is real, and one that I intend to make. It's well worth it for the all-around ability of the pips.

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Blog: "Holy Chtchet!" ⇝

Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

Yes, I was misinterpreting it on purpose to make the point. The chopping adjustment, real or false, is what you would expect a higher level player to make if the equipment is largely in the same class. And since you are going to be a higher level, you should make that adjustment and over time, you will easily chop with any rubber in that class at a higher level and just have preferences that add or remove 50 pts to your rating, but no more than that.

BTW, when I say "real or false", what I don't mean is that you are lying. What I mean is that as technique advances, you may see such things less as adjustments and more as part of your advanced technique.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Ah, good. I get that, and have already experienced that to some degree. I started off with P-1R and then decided I couldn't handle the speed of that rubber. Then I jumped to FL3, to provide some dampening to my chops that I was sending long with the P-1R. After some time, I moved back to P-1R and found it not to be fast at all. I had made an adjustment to my stroke level. You make valid points and I will keep that in mind. Even though...for better or worse...I will NOT switch.

I have a tournament this weekend, so we'll see what happens. I am going to enter the U2000 division, which is a big jump for me, but my non-tournament play has improved so much who knows. Either way, I'll give it my all. I hope to get some good experience from it regardless..

(and please don't call me a liar )

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Blog: "Holy Chtchet!" ⇝

Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

OKay, Prevaricator - you are not a liar

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Ha.. It's the "Prevaricator" checking in again....

Short session tonight at WDCTT and I have finally decided that the guiding style of defense on the forehand is much better for me at distance, for 90% of the shots on that side. My FH chops are just not consistent enough at long distance, and my ability to guide the ball back when defending is much more effective and consistent. I can do FH chops, but generally I attempt these only when they are a sure thing. It's certainly not a "Ground control" stroke for me away from the table.

If you don't know what I mean by "Guiding" watch Wang Xi, Panagiotis Gionis, or Ruwen Filius, and how they play on their FH side when defending on the FH. They guide and place the ball back, there is a deceptive amount of topspin/sidespin on those strokes. Sometimes they transition from guiding to straight up power looping and the contrast gives their opponents great difficulty. It's very effective, and I'm more effective with it.

Koji Matsushita gives a tutorial on the guiding stroke at 11:20 of the video below:


Something about that quote NextLevel mentioned a few posts back from Henzell:

This really resonated with me in more ways than one.
1st....as a defender, one has to learn twice the amount of strokes. I think I really need to simplify my game a bit and get really good at fewer strokes. This way, when under the pressure of competition, I can react more than think. The decision (on the FH side) to either perform an underspin or topspin stroke is just too much for me right now. If I concentrate on Topspin strokes on the FH side, I remove the chopping variable and thus remove the need to decide on which to do.

2nd...I think I've been wrapped up in the idea of being a classic defender in the 2 winged chopper sense. I enjoy FH chops, and as much as I'd like to be a poor man's Chetinine, I think I'm more effective as a poor man's Wang Xi. (A VERY POOR man's Wang Xi).

3rd...my BH attacks, hitting, looping underspin, and flicking have become some of the most important shots in my repertoire, and topspin strokes on the FH keep me in better position footwork-wise to perform those attacks on the BH.

last...personally, I find the FH guide easier to perform if my footwork isn't quite right...it's sort of a long-distance block of sorts..and even if my body is not in the ideal position, ie in the BH chopping stance, I can contort to some degree and reach on the FH side with a guide.

--Yonde kurete arigatō!

_________________
Blog: "Holy Chtchet!" ⇝

Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

Nice read Japiscan!

There is absolutely no EJism about replacing a worn rubber with the same rubber. So don't be afraid to put a new inverted on. I tend to be fairly gentle on my inverted as I hit with the pips side about 80%. So I don't change inverted more than once a year or more. But if its worn its worn. If you feel yourself hitting shots and it not doing quite what you'd expect, its probably time to change over.

The pips are quite a different story. Choosing 755 as the pip to stick with is probably not a bad choice. Personally, I chose CTT Pogo to do this with and stuck with it for 3 years. I finally changed to Dtecs as I had developed my technique so much and expired Pogo's potential for further improving my game. When I switched to Dtecs (which I had tried 3 years earlier and found it uncontrollable), it felt like a natural progression...and suddenly my game had deadly weapons again. People who had became comfortable playing me and often beating me, suddenly became my victims again. I've stuck with dtecs now for 3 years as well, but from dtecs there really is very few places to go...so now I just focus on refining techniques with it and trying to push my limits on how I use the rubber. I think with pips there are 2 ways to develop...

First is to refine what works for you already. So in other words the shots that you are comfortable playing just have to be made more precise and you have to "get to know" your rubber intimately. By this I mean know exactly how the ball is going to come off the rubber from every shot you make - this is an almost limitless learning exercise btw, but the better you know it the better you choose your shot, including your touch, angle etc.

The second thing is much harder to develop. Its the things that you really have to "force" yourself to do. With me its hitting over the ball with the pips. I've been developing this for years and years. I still feel like I'm only scratching the surface. It requires an indepth reading of the spin, a great focus on getting the stroke consistencies correct for the spin you see, better body positioning to execute the stroke...and basically more risk is enveloped in the shot because its a harder shot that isn't as natural to me. I play it a lot in practice and pretty well, but a lot less in matches where there is a lot more on the line. It creeps into my game more and more, but its an evolution, not a revolution. And of course a lot depends on who you are playing, the shots they allow you to play and the freedom with which you feel you can play. Now I'm not suggesting this exact shot type is something you wish to bring into your game, but I'm willing to bet there is something you're less confident with that doesn't feel as natural that you think..."if only I could play THAT shot". This is the 2nd type of shot development I'm referring to.

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I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.

You are taking smart practical steps in the right direction. Usually, when you can do one stroke consistently, the other strokes get better because you don't feel as rushed because your default is consistent backup. When you have time, you introduce the other strokes as variation.

Usually, for a non-pro, the simplest way to build a game is to get a consistent, point winning stroke as your primary. Make it very consistent and high level (higher than your general rating) and it becomes your main weapon and what most of your game will be built around introducing. People will prevent you from bringing in that weapon or setting it up. Then your goal for building your game becomes simple. You need tools to bring people back to your main weapon or at least make it harder for them to avoid it.

For me, my backhand was my primary weapon. I built it to consistently hit and attack over the table. Since most players didn't have aggressive backhands, I mostly played along the backhand diagonal. Eventually, someone would realize that the backhand battle was making no sense for them and they would start pounding my forehand. So this forced me to make my forehand better. I at least developed a loop vs. backspin to prevent them from just floating any ball there when I served. Some would realize I was tall and start playing my middle so I had to develop some backhand and forehand strokes to defend my middle with the right footwork. Now I want to make my forehand better because I want to aggressively control loops that are directed at it and not just block them.

In a similar way, your game will evolve - as you develop weapons and plays, people will try to avoid them and this will give you new trajectories to take your game in. One thing that may or may not fit into your game is what Reb wrote - attacking with pips. It distinguishes close to the table pips players significantly. Once a player can attack consistently with his pips, floating a slow balls to his pips becomes far less of an option.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

The professionals make the forehand "guide" stroke look really easy. Barely any contact, they just play the stroke forward and the ball goes on.

Now... when I do that shot, which is my go-to shot on my forehand away from the table, I quite often throw the ball off the end of the table if it's a spinny loop. I also find that even when I do get the ball on, it often results in me losing the point. If I guide the ball to my opponent's forehand, they flat-hit it back past me into my forehand (usually as I'm scrabbling across the court to get back to my backhand side). If I guide the ball back to my opponent's backhand, they take the ball off the bounce and put it wide into my backhand.

The level of consistency my opponents appear to get on these strokes is alarming. It's rare that, as in the video above, they just loop it back to the same place for me to then counter-loop.

I know I'm getting decent contact on it (in terms of brushing, to continue the topspin) because against lesser players they often hit off or just miss the ball entirely when it kicks. I don't know if maybe the ball needs to be lower or something too to stop/increase the error margin of the flat-hitting.

One thing appears relatively obvious to me though. The one professional chopper who has a forehand chop [edit: both a forehand chop AND a strong forehand loop, as opposed to either just a chop or a "guided forehand" and a loop] is far and away the best modern defender. Joo always puts something on the ball - heavy chop or a heavy loop - he very rarely just guides the ball. In that way, he's stopping the attacker from being able to control the game. It's much harder to move your opponent round when you're looping heavy backspin than it is to move them around when you're looping/blocking/dropping/whatever a medium level of topspin. In my opinion, that's why he's the most consistent and therefore the best of all the defenders.

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My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)

The guiding or fishing shot is very important to against many kind of long shots to my FH. Against no spin I use my wrist to generate more spin.

Guide shot for me is quite equipment dependant - I can do chopping, pushing decently with many different equipment, guiding need something with enough control and juice.

Many times I just get blade on the way of the ball and it should be enough give decent speed and spin. If equipment need active stroke to be efficient, it's problematic, because often you don't have time for it.

When I returned to TT I had MP blade with very old Mendo sheet in it. I could play many shot with it, but guiding/fishing was disaster. Balls just floated back, either long or to the table with no speed and spin or they just slipped and dropped at my feet.

My Defplay+Rakza7max gives maximum spin to ball with good speed. Trajectory is high and control ok. It's a must to sacrifice some control to get more dangerous ball or you will be destroyed.

I have found that new sheets play much better in guiding, as they don't slip so easily. With older sheet you must penetrate the sponge more.

i cant agree with playing consistant and safe is way to go...
consistant is important it is true...
but sometimes u need to risk and do more aggressive shot
will u safe push/punch high ball?



nice is 1st drill, simple and effective
short service to fh, deep push/punch to bh and counterattack to fh

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Butterfly Defence II / Victas Curl P1V 0.5mm / Tibhar Evolution MX-P 2.0mm -185g

By "slip", do you mean where the ball just seems to fall off the rubber?

With my older rubbers (almost all of which are boosted), this happens regularly. When I bought a new sheet of Victas 401, it didn't happen once. I've probably played 120 hours with that rubber now and it's still as consistent.

Could the slipping be something to do with the tuning, or the gluing of the rubber?

_________________
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
Join the OOAK Discord!: https://discord.gg/Yw2hYUdz3g

[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)