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 Post subject: Re: Holy Chtchet!
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 01:51 
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For the SP forehand? I think I need a demo of how the stroke should look first, but agree.

What do you think overall about that style for me?

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Chtchet!
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2018, 05:49 
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Things to work on for my next session:

Opening against fast heavy side under to my BH.
Counter looping in general, but especially against slow spinny topspins, and high.
Creating heavier short underspin with backhand served.
Looping/hitting balls that are flat hit against underspin (opponent hits underspin, does not loop to lift it)

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Chtchet!
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2018, 23:41 
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I am strapped for time, so I will make this quick and wont check it for grammar, or continuity, so forgive me if this is all over the place:

I am currently going down the craziest style/EJ path I've had in a while. My annual skin-shedding that I tend to do at the beginning/end of the year. Every time this happens, I tend to play Jpen or attack, with mixed results. But I always learn a lot.

The lessons I've been taking have been as a double inverted attacker. I did try SPs on the backhand and the forehand but I don't think that fits my personality in the end. I did like chopping with SPs...but very slow SPs, and being able to attack on the BH without twiddling was nice. I also played my usual chopper setup again at league and did very well, naturally, but felt very hamstrung in terms of attacking possibilities. My forehand has improved so I think all of this experimentation has definitely been worth it.

Playing with OX, however, I experienced having difficulties with much lower players who are spinless. I shifted to attacking more and that solved that issue, but there are always issue with OX chopping which gives people I can easily beat with double inverted a chance.

Because of playing JPEN, I also now have a FH crossover which I lacked before! Now if I can only get back into position from the crossover...gotta work on that. More of a lack of habit...I watch my ball instead of moving my feet.

I also revisited the double inverted chopper style with Reflectoid. I think this is the best current compromise between attacking and defending. I can keep a lot of my ingrained habits from defense, but apply all of new attacking strategies. I've been down this road before and didn't' stick with it, but I think I will give this a solid couple of months or so. The urge to go back to grippy LPs is always there, and I have that setup for matches that count. The difference in level between LP chopping and double inverted chopping, out of all the styles I've tried, is the smallest.

Current state, my LP chopping level is about 1630...maybe a little more. Comparatively, here are what I estimate my level to be with all of the recent wacky style experimentation I have tried:

Double inverted attacker: 1400-1500
Jpen Attacker: 1200 (haha)
Sp attacker: 1300-1400
SP defender 1500 ish
Double inverted Modern D/allround style 1500-1600

So, in terms of level playing a double inverted chopping/allround style is the closest in terms of competitive results. And the good news is I can continue applying the double inverted attacking techniques and strategy that I am currently learning during my lessons. Kind of a win/win. The backhand is a little different with thin reflectoid, but I am very whippy on that side with loops, so I can compensate. Will I stick with it? We'll see. I don't think it would take too long to get over 1600 and match my current level.

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Chtchet!
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 00:06 
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Perhaps not surprising that LP chopping and double inverted (especially with Reflectoid) are reasonably close - the way you win points are probably quite similar. Too bad I did not get to see your matches (or play you) at the Teams in November - one of the things I'm still not too sure is whether you do play as a 'chopper'.

I was about to play another chopper in the club yesterday and spectators were saying things like "ooh, two-chopper match, this will take a while! :) ". To which my opponent quickly responded:"he's not a chopper!". I kind of agree with her - she does chop on both sides and would only attack a high ball, so definitely a chopper. Me, on the other hand, I now tend to be more aggressive on FH - may be not trying to loop/hit everything, but not pushing a lot either and only occasionally chopping there. And on BH: sure, I will chop when a good shot comes my way, but I am also very likely to hit/bump against backspin. I won 3:0, mostly by attacking her backspin with LP - she tried to chop these balls, but they did not really have much topspin on them and so promptly went into the net.

I guess the gist is that if you want to be more aggressive, you can, even without double inverted. If you want to mostly loop on BH, OK, that's different. Probably possible with twiddling, but adds extra complication. In the end you play the way you enjoy the most (I like the 'skin shedding' metaphor).

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Chtchet!
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 03:58 
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pgpg wrote:
Perhaps not surprising that LP chopping and double inverted (especially with Reflectoid) are reasonably close - the way you win points are probably quite similar. Too bad I did not get to see your matches (or play you) at the Teams in November - one of the things I'm still not too sure is whether you do play as a 'chopper'.

I was about to play another chopper in the club yesterday and spectators were saying things like "ooh, two-chopper match, this will take a while! :) ". To which my opponent quickly responded:"he's not a chopper!". I kind of agree with her - she does chop on both sides and would only attack a high ball, so definitely a chopper. Me, on the other hand, I now tend to be more aggressive on FH - may be not trying to loop/hit everything, but not pushing a lot either and only occasionally chopping there. And on BH: sure, I will chop when a good shot comes my way, but I am also very likely to hit/bump against backspin. I won 3:0, mostly by attacking her backspin with LP - she tried to chop these balls, but they did not really have much topspin on them and so promptly went into the net.

I guess the gist is that if you want to be more aggressive, you can, even without double inverted. If you want to mostly loop on BH, OK, that's different. Probably possible with twiddling, but adds extra complication. In the end you play the way you enjoy the most (I like the 'skin shedding' metaphor).


Yeah, I definitely play as a chopper. The one game you watched, my opponent was giving me too many opportunities to attack, so I took them. But against most folks, I am definitely a chopper. However, when I play against other classic choppers, I definitely tend to have less patience, and as such I often have trouble.

My forehand attack is my week point, I can loop fine against underspin and to open, but my in rally foreahand against top is either block or chop. I have a counter forehand chop as people tell me, and a good one. But I have ZERO counter loop. Also, I tend to flat hit more in the rally on that side. On my backhand, however, I am very spinny and loopy, with lots of whip, so my best attack option is to twiddle and backhand loop if I am playing with pips. I twiddle a lot. By best shots are my forehand chop, and my backhand loop, kind of reverse modern defender. Now, if I get underspin, i have a pretty good loop on the FH...but honestly I prefer to chop all day if the opponent lets me.

I can handle no-spin far better with backhand inverted strokes.

When I play with my DG/Defplay combo, I do the Jian Li bump, and it's very good for me. But the player must give me under. If i play a guy that does a lot of no spin, I don't often bump with the LPs.
Being more agressive with the LPs is exactly what I've been trying to do lately. And if I go back to LPs (probablly will, who knows) I will continue infusing offense in my attack.

My best performance in recent memory was at or Last Team league when I played a penhold push blocker..I ran around and FH looped everything and won a close match. But that style is usually the death of me.

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Chtchet!
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 00:32 
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Update.

This is the longest I've strayed form LP chopping. I still use my normal LP/Inverted setup for league (I need to have a minimum level of play there). I have toyed with attacking setups (Viscaria/Offensive S) and I have played with SPs and MPs (802/Hammond FA/Hexer Pips/388C-1). But of all the setups, the one that affords me the best potential is my double inverted chopping rig. I have been playing most successfully with my Defplay/Reflectoid 1.5mm combo. The forehand is unsettled, but I'll probably keep the Omega IV 2.0mm. Currently I have satoshi aida's rubber Mark V HPS, and it's a bit strange, but super effective at times. I may put both Red/Black Mark V HPS rubbers on another defplay and give that some time to see if I like it. But fast inverted on the BH requires a huge technique change and Reflectoid is super forgiving, dampening, and you can really swing for the fences on chops. Reflectoid is not as spinny though, but surprisingly good on offense.

My opponents all seem to like my game as a double inverted chopper, as my tactics are similar, effective (because their ingrained), but I have the added threat of my best offensive strokes on my backhand.

The big difference I notice on defense as a double inverted modern defender, is that the distancing is a bit different, as are the strokes possible (for me) to execute relative to my distance for the table. With LPs, if I get a fast return sent to my BH as I am backing up, when I'm in the mid-distance no man's land, I do sort of a chop block...with inverted, it's easier to fish/lob/loop on the backhand rather than chop. So, sometimes, based on my footwork and my opponent, I play more allround/retriever.

Also, it's a lot easier to throw in 3rd ball serve and attacks. With LPs, I didn't like doing that as much, because if I got a weak ball to the LPs in return, rather than attacking it, I typically would chop it...and they opponent would get a week ball in return to attack. Now that I have inverted on the back, I have the choice to attack with either wing.

So far so good. Even the owner of my club, who is typically very stoic and short on compliments, seem to prefer my game this way. he's a short pips user and usually kills me, but we played very close. I also beat a one of my teammates (a junior) who is very athletic looper. He seemed confounded by the inverted chopping on the BH. It has far more spin in the first 2 chops than LP, and with adequate wrist, those all got netted. Conversely, taking off spin was equally as effective.

My practice partner beat me, but our games were close for the most part. He was pretty tired in his defense... I'm curious as to his feedback.

Now the bad. I beat a lower level guy I always cream, but then lost to him in a second match. Granted, I was forcing myself to try some new serves, and working on my BH chopping technique (trying to lengthen it and take the ball lower), but still.

All in all, just another day in the world of TT, ups and downs...just as I had with LP. But I am truly liking this style, and I think it will stick this time. As a result, I have many blades and pips to sell and trade, so I'll post those soon. :rock:

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Chtchet!
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 02:08 
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Japsican wrote:
Update.

This is the longest I've strayed form LP chopping. I still use my normal LP/Inverted setup for league (I need to have a minimum level of play there). I have toyed with attacking setups (Viscaria/Offensive S) and I have played with SPs and MPs (802/Hammond FA/Hexer Pips/388C-1). But of all the setups, the one that affords me the best potential is my double inverted chopping rig. I have been playing most successfully with my Defplay/Reflectoid 1.5mm combo. The forehand is unsettled, but I'll probably keep the Omega IV 2.0mm. Currently I have satoshi aida's rubber Mark V HPS, and it's a bit strange, but super effective at times. I may put both Red/Black Mark V HPS rubbers on another defplay and give that some time to see if I like it. But fast inverted on the BH requires a huge technique change and Reflectoid is super forgiving, dampening, and you can really swing for the fences on chops. Reflectoid is not as spinny though, but surprisingly good on offense.

My opponents all seem to like my game as a double inverted chopper, as my tactics are similar, effective (because their ingrained), but I have the added threat of my best offensive strokes on my backhand.

The big difference I notice on defense as a double inverted modern defender, is that the distancing is a bit different, as are the strokes possible (for me) to execute relative to my distance for the table. With LPs, if I get a fast return sent to my BH as I am backing up, when I'm in the mid-distance no man's land, I do sort of a chop block...with inverted, it's easier to fish/lob/loop on the backhand rather than chop. So, sometimes, based on my footwork and my opponent, I play more allround/retriever.

Also, it's a lot easier to throw in 3rd ball serve and attacks. With LPs, I didn't like doing that as much, because if I got a weak ball to the LPs in return, rather than attacking it, I typically would chop it...and they opponent would get a week ball in return to attack. Now that I have inverted on the back, I have the choice to attack with either wing.

So far so good. Even the owner of my club, who is typically very stoic and short on compliments, seem to prefer my game this way. he's a short pips user and usually kills me, but we played very close. I also beat a one of my teammates (a junior) who is very athletic looper. He seemed confounded by the inverted chopping on the BH. It has far more spin in the first 2 chops than LP, and with adequate wrist, those all got netted. Conversely, taking off spin was equally as effective.

My practice partner beat me, but our games were close for the most part. He was pretty tired in his defense... I'm curious as to his feedback.

Now the bad. I beat a lower level guy I always cream, but then lost to him in a second match. Granted, I was forcing myself to try some new serves, and working on my BH chopping technique (trying to lengthen it and take the ball lower), but still.

All in all, just another day in the world of TT, ups and downs...just as I had with LP. But I am truly liking this style, and I think it will stick this time. As a result, I have many blades and pips to sell and trade, so I'll post those soon. :rock:


You know what it's quite interesting your results with double inverted as I recently tried my friends Stiga ALL classic Mark V 1.5 / 802-50 1.5 to try the short pips and in the end found I could actually chop really really well with the Mark V 1.5 lol. For all of 15mins I considered really giving Mark V a go until I realised this is a bad time to try something new.
One day I may actually try this though, as my BH opener/block/fishing is really good and consistent. But the long pips are so nice for service receive :devil:

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Chtchet!
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 02:55 
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Ndragon wrote:
You know what it's quite interesting your results with double inverted as I recently tried my friends Stiga ALL classic Mark V 1.5 / 802-50 1.5 to try the short pips and in the end found I could actually chop really really well with the Mark V 1.5 lol. For all of 15mins I considered really giving Mark V a go until I realised this is a bad time to try something new.
One day I may actually try this though, as my BH opener/block/fishing is really good and consistent. But the long pips are so nice for service receive :devil:

It is. But you know what? My short game is better now, including service receive. Strangely. I never used LPs because of service receive, but reaped the benefits. But sometimes, they actually made things worse for me. I think inverted is so "simple" that the KISS principle applies for my puny brain. My practice partner has a short side spin serve to the backhand that I used to struggle with using LPs (no matter how we practiced it), but with inverted I am okay with those, both pushing and sometimes flipping.

And yes, I agree...bad time to try something new for you! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Chtchet!
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 05:21 
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Japsican wrote:
Ndragon wrote:
You know what it's quite interesting your results with double inverted as I recently tried my friends Stiga ALL classic Mark V 1.5 / 802-50 1.5 to try the short pips and in the end found I could actually chop really really well with the Mark V 1.5 lol. For all of 15mins I considered really giving Mark V a go until I realised this is a bad time to try something new.
One day I may actually try this though, as my BH opener/block/fishing is really good and consistent. But the long pips are so nice for service receive :devil:

It is. But you know what? My short game is better now, including service receive. Strangely. I never used LPs because of service receive, but reaped the benefits. But sometimes, they actually made things worse for me. I think inverted is so "simple" that the KISS principle applies for my puny brain. My practice partner has a short side spin serve to the backhand that I used to struggle with using LPs (no matter how we practiced it), but with inverted I am okay with those, both pushing and sometimes flipping.

And yes, I agree...bad time to try something new for you! :D


How do you find the inverted BH for when someone gives you a high quality loop (fast and loaded)?

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Chtchet!
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 05:35 
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Ndragon wrote:
Japsican wrote:
Ndragon wrote:
You know what it's quite interesting your results with double inverted as I recently tried my friends Stiga ALL classic Mark V 1.5 / 802-50 1.5 to try the short pips and in the end found I could actually chop really really well with the Mark V 1.5 lol. For all of 15mins I considered really giving Mark V a go until I realised this is a bad time to try something new.
One day I may actually try this though, as my BH opener/block/fishing is really good and consistent. But the long pips are so nice for service receive :devil:

It is. But you know what? My short game is better now, including service receive. Strangely. I never used LPs because of service receive, but reaped the benefits. But sometimes, they actually made things worse for me. I think inverted is so "simple" that the KISS principle applies for my puny brain. My practice partner has a short side spin serve to the backhand that I used to struggle with using LPs (no matter how we practiced it), but with inverted I am okay with those, both pushing and sometimes flipping.

And yes, I agree...bad time to try something new for you! :D


How do you find the inverted BH for when someone gives you a high quality loop (fast and loaded)?

It's a work in progress because I have been doing BH inverted chopping for a lot less time than FH inverted chopping. All I can tell you is that on the FH, I rarely worry that the speed/spin will be too much for me on that side. I have just dialed it in to muscle memory. Ont he BH side, my technique isnt' there yet because I am transitioning from pips. But it has already rapidly improved.

You just need to adjust your angle, have a loose hand, and take it lower. So your footwork changes a little as does your distancing. This is where I struggle the most. Not the bat speed or bat angle.

Reflectoid is very forgiving, and it helps me on this. The HPS is less forgiving, but still pretty good. The more dwell the inverted has, the better it is for me...the dampening is secondary.

If you look at Jo Parker and Aida, of course, they're pros....but Jo chopped Ding Ning's loops, and I have to imagine they are pretty sick. And everyone Aida faces is spinny as hell. So, proof of concept is there. And watching both of them, I don't get the impression they have particularly fast bat speed in their BH stroke. So they are managing things with angle, timing, and counting on the inverted higher throw angle to give them consistency. That's what I do on the FH, and it's still my best stroke. I was thinking about putting the Secret Flow on that side....I actually really like that rubber, and it's not too fast.

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Chtchet!
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 07:54 
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And yes, I agree...bad time to try something new for you! :D[/quote]

How do you find the inverted BH for when someone gives you a high quality loop (fast and loaded)?[/quote]
It's a work in progress because I have been doing BH inverted chopping for a lot less time than FH inverted chopping. All I can tell you is that on the FH, I rarely worry that the speed/spin will be too much for me on that side. I have just dialed it in to muscle memory. Ont he BH side, my technique isnt' there yet because I am transitioning from pips. But it has already rapidly improved.

You just need to adjust your angle, have a loose hand, and take it lower. So your footwork changes a little as does your distancing. This is where I struggle the most. Not the bat speed or bat angle.

Reflectoid is very forgiving, and it helps me on this. The HPS is less forgiving, but still pretty good. The more dwell the inverted has, the better it is for me...the dampening is secondary.

If you look at Jo Parker and Aida, of course, they're pros....but Jo chopped Ding Ning's loops, and I have to imagine they are pretty sick. And everyone Aida faces is spinny as hell. So, proof of concept is there. And watching both of them, I don't get the impression they have particularly fast bat speed in their BH stroke. So they are managing things with angle, timing, and counting on the inverted higher throw angle to give them consistency. That's what I do on the FH, and it's still my best stroke. I was thinking about putting the Secret Flow on that side....I actually really like that rubber, and it's not too fast.[/quote]



As someone who’s using a very... well, most people wouldn’t reccoment using the rubber I have on my BH but I did anyways and never gonna go back :rock: I do think the secret to chopping with inverted is not trying to chop ridiculously fast and brushy-like, because that is not what, say, for example, what Yuto does imho, contrary to what the rest of you have said. If he was indeed doing that, the sound would be different; it is loud. Obviously chopping with inverted does have to be pretty fast but honestly, it’s not any faster than chopping with LP. Just look at Hou Yinchao. I think it’s the touch that’s different, and imo u described it pretty well Japsican. And a quick fun memory (for me anyways :oops: :P ); it took me 3-4 months to able to chop with my BH rubber at all, and a couple more to be able to chop at least 5 times in a row

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Chtchet!
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 07:56 
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Another thing; you have to be very relaxed. Being tense is a no no

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Chtchet!
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2018, 22:28 
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Danthespearton HQ wrote:

As someone who’s using a very... well, most people wouldn’t reccoment using the rubber I have on my BH but I did anyways and never gonna go back :rock: I do think the secret to chopping with inverted is not trying to chop ridiculously fast and brushy-like, because that is not what, say, for example, what Yuto does imho, contrary to what the rest of you have said. If he was indeed doing that, the sound would be different; it is loud. Obviously chopping with inverted does have to be pretty fast but honestly, it’s not any faster than chopping with LP. Just look at Hou Yinchao. I think it’s the touch that’s different, and imo u described it pretty well Japsican. And a quick fun memory (for me anyways :oops: :P ); it took me 3-4 months to able to chop with my BH rubber at all, and a couple more to be able to chop at least 5 times in a row


Thanks Dan! I don't think people find your BH rubber something they wouldn't recommend. It's fairly popular amongst choppers, especially in Japan. SP choppers are certainly more common than smooth rubber choppers... One day I'll try SSPC 1 and 2.

Danthespearton HQ wrote:
Another thing; you have to be very relaxed. Being tense is a no no

Agreed. This is true of all rubber types, LP/Inv/SP/Anti but particularly important with grippier rubbers. What is really eye opening is now you don't really have to match the perceived speed of the loop all of the time and still keep the ball low.

If you take the ball lower, and watch your bat angle, you can keep anything low. There is a limit to this though. There comes a point where no amount of angle will suffice and you MUST increase swing speed...but it's all a balancing act. Also, if you decide to be slow and steady vs. a high spin ball, and rely solely on bat angle to manage the spin, you will likely send back a deadish ball...which can be useful, but these have to be very low and you need to pick your spots. What's interesting, is I did all of this without training, intuitively on the forehand. But on the BH, it's been less intuitive.

However, I will say, for the longest time I couldn't chop on the FH at all, and one day it just... "clicked" and has been my best stroke since.

Harder for me to deal with is lots of side spin on the back hand. Again, this is also something that came natural on the FH.

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Chtchet!
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2018, 22:39 
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Chopping with SPs/inverted on your backhand is no problem at all against lower spin, lower speed opponents.

However, as you start to play against quicker/more powerful loopers, USATT 2000+ kinda guys, the difference in my experience is noticeable.

It's much more important to be in the right position to chop with SPs. If you're out of position, and you try to play a small chop, the ball won't land. With LPs on the other hand, even a small chop will tend to put the ball back - perhaps not with much spin, and perhaps higher than usual, but it'll still land. If you're a small amount off with SPs (against a decent loop), the ball will go nowhere near the table.

I also found that I needed nearly ~1.5 metres' additional space (length-ways, e.g. away from the table) in comparison to LPs. I had to be further back to really chop the ball properly. Anything closer made the margin for error higher.

I love SPs and I wish I had a venue to support their use... but when I tried them for a couple of seasons, I found my defensive game even worse than usual. I basically ended up becoming an SP attacker because I just wasn't quick enough to chop consistently with SPs.

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 Post subject: Re: Holy Chtchet!
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2018, 02:15 
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dunc wrote:
Chopping with SPs/inverted on your backhand is no problem at all against lower spin, lower speed opponents.

However, as you start to play against quicker/more powerful loopers, USATT 2000+ kinda guys, the difference in my experience is noticeable.

It's much more important to be in the right position to chop with SPs. If you're out of position, and you try to play a small chop, the ball won't land. With LPs on the other hand, even a small chop will tend to put the ball back - perhaps not with much spin, and perhaps higher than usual, but it'll still land. If you're a small amount off with SPs (against a decent loop), the ball will go nowhere near the table.

I also found that I needed nearly ~1.5 metres' additional space (length-ways, e.g. away from the table) in comparison to LPs. I had to be further back to really chop the ball properly. Anything closer made the margin for error higher.

I love SPs and I wish I had a venue to support their use... but when I tried them for a couple of seasons, I found my defensive game even worse than usual. I basically ended up becoming an SP attacker because I just wasn't quick enough to chop consistently with SPs.


Right, that jives with my experience. When i speak about chopping, I am doing so within the context of playing people over 1900 on a regular basis, and training with my coach/friend who's about 2300...as I said, no problem with inverted on the FH vs. him, it's the BH that I don't have a touch for. But again, if I can do it on the FH with regularity, I can do it on the BH, I just need to learn how.

Reflectoid helps with this somehow, it's dampening, and I think there is a threshold where it goes from grippy/tacky to semi -slippery. I think MARK V HPS has a similar quality but less so...just a hell of a lot faster. When I swing for the fences, and faster than the 2300 level player's loops I have the best success rate, and then I can use the throw angle (in the opposite direction/downward throw) to pinpoint the height of the ball. But it take s alot of practice. And all of my experience against anyone over 2200 is during practice and drilling, not in a game. But playing against guys from 1900-2100 I seem okay. As long as they aren't named Der_Echte. That dude is spinny.

Watch Aida vs. anyone. His chops do not seem inordinately fast, and you know he's playing supper spinny people at that level. Spinnier than any of us will feel. He played a guy that I saw at the NA Teams, and that guy was 2750. Same goes for Jo Parker, or Telnoy. Watch their videos and tell me if you think their chops are faster than any LP chopper you watch.

Here's what I notice, my level doesn't change that much, but I tend to not lose to people below me as often. With LPs, I am upset at a far greater rate. I also upset others above me, far less often. The net result is about the same. I'm okay with that.

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