OOAK Table Tennis Forum

While playing around with contact points on my old serve earlier in the day, I found something interesting and it worked like a charm at this point in the practice games. I explain to him what happened. The first serve is a topspin serve or at most, very light backspin. It hit the net and my partner played in that time where people read spins off the ball so he inspected the ball and saw how it was spinning. So I switched it to the backspin version and his loop goes into the net.

https://youtu.be/9IxbtDAXdIY?t=1362

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"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

These kind of serves give me nightmares because it reminds of my friend Roy Emmons. He does extremely fast, long backhand serves where he changes the contact point on the paddle to get different types of spin (top, dead, heavy under). Essentially he does what you did in that video but his serves are like rockets. I've been playing him for probably 6 years and I still can't really read them. His rating is only in the 1600's, but I still think he is the best BH server I've ever faced.

Since you have a more advanced loop now, you could probably loop all his serves right now with hardly any sweat. The thing about fast long serves is that as long as you aren't blocking then, their spin is not that heavy so you can loop through them fairly consistently as long as you make looping.contact. The heavy backspin ones tend to slow down and reveal themselves if you wait and if you push those back, I doubt that he will be able to kill them.

The problem is that you are letting your memory of who you were interfere with your knowledge of who you really are. You don't get heavy spin on extremely fast serves unless you are King Kong.

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"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Practiced punch serves while sleep walking (was really late at night on Monday or Tuesday morning) and got mildly frustrated. Still double hitting too much when serving backspin and often not getting the finish high enough. Topspin is not reliably consistent either and neither is the backspin sometimes.

Well tomorrow is another day.

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"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Punch Serve Practice Video

Maybe its my energy level this week, or the lack of real time feedback or my inability to get the spin results I think I should be getting but the practice is generally losing me. The videos are in chronological order.

Trying to make it make sense
https://youtu.be/I2WaCPRq5aY
https://youtu.be/XVr4UjRf6V4

Front view
https://youtu.be/ZhQXWe_lt4w

Back View
https://youtu.be/UQUSpfOXrZY

Side View
https://youtu.be/EVOPJc-CcZM

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
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"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

So in general, the biggest change I have made recently to my game that has helped my serve return has been changing my grip. I will discuss this in a video for the blog later this week.

So Brett looked at the highlight LordCope posted of my match with so_dev and pointed out how little I used my forehand when the opportunity arose. I found it interesting and while I thought initially it was just food/laziness etc., I realized (or rather remembered) that I have an issue with my forehand over the table. Thanks to Brett (TTEdge videos) and my analytical brain (I have to take some credit for myself), I think I finally have the tools to solve it. I will post some of my thoughts as I think some of the issues I am having might be affecting other people unconsciously.

There are two things whose effect on shot readiness that in my experience amateurs underestimate
- the first is foot positioning, or more generally body position, but I will focus on the feet as they tend to be a good indicator of what kind of shot you are ready to play - usually, racket foot at the back means ready for a forehand, racket feet parallel without the proper outward point sometimes means mostly ready for a backhand.
- the second is the grip. Forehand grips make it easier to close the forehand and sometimes to make more racket angles on the forehand, backhand grips make it easier to close the backhand and sometimes to make more racket angles on the backhand.

What was happening to me until recently was that I used to have my index finger higher up on the blade than ideal for my goal of a balanced two wing game. This was sufficient for me to play big strokes on both sides, and I probably did some grip switching as well. However, what also used to happen to me unfortunately was that I would often get locked into a grip based on how I played the serve return or the third ball. If the ball came long and I attacked, I was fine, but if the ball was short or awkward off the serve return and came short, I felt more confident using my backhand over the table and consequently, unless the right ball forced me to switch, I was stuck playing backhands for the rest of the rally.

I say until recently because I switched to the grip in LTT2 - I actually wanted to do so on my own initiative without looking at LTT2 because I figured that getting my index finger lower would let me use the same kinds of motions on the forehand and backhand, especially for countering topspin. Interestingly enough, when I looked at LTT2 after asking BRS to consider changing his grip, I noticed that LTT2 was pretty much the grip I was trying to switch to but with the kinks worked out.

Today, I realized that since I now use the LTT2 neutral grip, I actually feel comfortable creating a variety of racket angles on the forehand as well as the backhand so I really do not need to use my backhand on the forehand side anymore. In fact, LTT41 helped as well, because I realized that I could actually use a tighter grip on the racket than I had been using and still retain whippiness and this helped my forehand control as well.

Being able to return serves and play over the table using either side comfortably and not feeling trapped by foot positioning or grip is going to help my game a lot. It will take time, but I think it is the next step. If you have to switch grips between forehand and backhand, even mildly, just be aware of the effect it can have on how you play and the shots you feel comfortable playing.

Here is a match where against a lower rated player where I am trying to do two things - test Tenergy 05 and use my forehand to return serves more. I am not happy with the regression of my serve form, but I can see that on video and will fix it.

https://youtu.be/Av9wER04V8E

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
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"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

When you can't return serves and are not tournament sharp, these kinds of matches happen to you...

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
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"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

What was going on with the serve there? He makes a flat contact side swipe and looks like he makes last second adjustments to vary the spin. Hard to predict the spin on those since the stroke is last second. Ugh...must be frustrating.

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Most of the effect is that the serves are slow topspin. That messes up the brain unless you are told or forced to adjust.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Haha NL, I remember this gent. I played vs him in my 2nd tourney after getting back from Korea. he is from NJ area goes to Han-In TTC. He was 1600ish in 2013 Korean Old School playin' J-Pen slapper with tricky topspin serve, he would use that on 1/2 hiz serves. Took me a few games to get used to them. Luckily, he had problems with my serves too. I eventually read hiz Topspin serve and placed it uncomfortable for him at his body or BH or down FH line.

You know you got it safe if you give it to him low with underspin to hiz BH. What you do is land that deep, then spin the next ball really heavy, preferably to hiz BH, then you hit away for winner. This guy's wrist, like many old school Korean J-Penners is difficult to read. I won 3-0 but had to battle it out for the first game before taking over.

I ran into him Sep 2015 when I did the big Korean NYC tourney, we all gathered at NJ Korean Han-In TTC the night before tourney and I played vs him again. Man, I STRUGGLED vs him to read hiz serve and his slap was meaner and more consistent. I won 3-1 but felp like I barely got by him, seemed like he became 1800+ player, and looking at the ratings, he DID... and a few months later became almost 2000 level.

One cannot under-rate such a gent, they serves is tricky and they might sudden with that J-Pen slap shot for a winner it is so FLAT and fast.

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Der_Echte,

If he could spin the ball occasionally, I would have lost this match. I find it a little sad that I couldn't bring myself to attack any of his serves but my serve game kicked in in the middle of game 2 and then I noticed the slow heavy spin thing that you brought up (I could spin to either side and it didn't matter) so that started my comeback. At 9-9 in 5th, I just had to decide what to do. Gave him no spin first and backspin second and got popup pushes both times and gave him all out NL forehand kill. But at some point, I have to watch how he creates the illusion in slow motion because that ball comes slow but is sick and heavy compared to what you think is on it. But I would probably do better if I used my topspin strokes but my brain refused to adjust.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

I swear we have 20 of these types of players in Vegas. I guess some are better than others but it is difficult getting past that serve!

NL,

I have to say that I am a bit disappointed that you are still taking such a passive approach to returning deep, spinny serves - especially to your FH. The fact that the serve is spinny and/or deceptive is beside the point. My opinion is that you need to take an all-out looping approach against deep serves in both casual and competitive environments for the rest of 2016, even if your rating drops temporarily. You need to be held accountable for this, and probably need to be chewed out every time you don't do it. I'm not sure what your goals are for TT now specifically, but there is no way you will be the 2300 player that I know you can be with this type of approach you're taking now.

One of my takeaways from the tournament that my forehand game still needs work and that under pressure, I regress into my BH game.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Yup. Dude would be 200 points higher rated if he could make a spiny opening topspin vs underspin or no-spin. He is tough enough playing flat.

My service strategy vs him went pretty much how I explained my basic serve strategy to you in NYC V3.0 at NYISC. I serve heavy underspin to establish that my underspin is really heavy. J-penners vs me often miss the first one or two of those. I give them the same on to BH, they miss one or two, then they adjust. I go to no-spin for pop-ups and a sneaky slow topspin/corkscrew mixed in with more heavy underspin to keep 'em honest. I either smash or heavy topspin depending on return.

SOME Korean J-Penners have a nasty BH J-Pen smash vs underspin, often, they are very streaky on that shot, maybe land 4 in a row, then miss the next 3-5. Usually, vs a Korean J-Pen player, you are safe pushing to BH, you will get back a long under-spin ball to spin up, which they block long, or soft and high for a hitting chance. You really do not want to get into a pushing rally vs them, you will mis-read a dead push, pop it up an inch or two and BANG, the flat hit and point is over. Players who play the kind of game Chung did can reach 2000 without any ability topspin the ball, if you play them soft and wait your chance, usually you end up losing the point, unless your touch is real good.

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