OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Thanks, Ringer. I would strongly encourage you to work on this kind of stuff as well if you don't already. What I think is best and what I do with my students is work on serves so that the serves grow with the students. I think that is the reason why one of the juniors in my club has great serves now - he has always had good serves for the level he played at and they have grown with him as he has grown.

In my experience now, most players under 1600 USATT have no chance returning my pendulum serves consistently and many at the 1900 level struggle as well. They always miss either the backspin or the topspin and I give them whichever one they miss consistently until they adjust then I switch to the other one. The improvement in my serve game is the reason why I haven't had any real 50 pt losses all year (well I had one 2 weeks ago but that was largely a combination of silly things as no camera, hunger and pity and I didn't really try - sometimes cute 9 year old girls do that to you and her mother was game enough to admit as much). That I have only been practicing serves with good serve coaching (even if the actual coaching has been sporadic) for a year gives me an idea of how things could have gone if I had learned the stuff I know now when I was rated USATT 1000.

And I know it can get better with practice and that I haven't hit the ceiling because I can see what the junior, who has the best pendulum serve in my club, experiences. IT's largely what you describe. Lower level players miss the serves outright, just like I am experiencing, or pop the serves up for easy kills. Higher level players put the balls meekly in his strike zone and he has two winged kill shots so they then start missing his serve trying to avoid the kill zones. And he hardly serves short per se. He puts a lot of spin on the ball so people find it hard to attack or put his serve where he doesn't like it. For me, what protects people is that I am not good at countering. But I should simply build the serve and play behind it and I will be able to block and counter openings like you say because they will rarely be confident outright kills.

What keyed me in to it really was watching a penholder who is in the high 2300s play and his serves seemed to go long fairly often and I kept wondering why people were struggling with his serve. And then it hit me that he never served short and slow. He served long and half long and the half long serves were occasionally double bounce short. That and the kid's criticism made me realize that I had my focus on how to serve short the wrong way round because the penholder could block and counter openings and could spin pushes very heavily.

The pendulum is also a very easy serve to learn once you know what you are looking for. I've learned the basic ones from Brett and some of the old-school Schlager type ones from a guy in my club (those give you more of a corkscrew effect). Then while Brett advocates this tick-whip backswing, I have seen some 2400+ players do extremely well with still, large backswing where they straighten the serving arm, and just whip into the ball with the same contact ideas that Brett uses and that inspired me to revisit the serve a little even if my mechanics were not perfect.

So trust me - TTEDge has a lot of stuff on serving that people should mine and take seriously. IF someone had told me that to protect myself from losing to lower rated players, better serves would be the key, I would not have believed it.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Knowing you can win on both your serves takes so much pressure off your game and allows for you to do a good job on at least one of their serves. That is an average of 3-1 in your favor and by the end of the game, junior can get downright demoralized when that stuff keeps up. Junior feels the pressure and it usually isn't good.

You hit upon a very good point.

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Goof-off chopping bat
Gambler All Rosewood
Aurus Soft / Gambler GXL .6 sponge

Status - Out of Business Janitor/Babysitter

I've been pretty proud of my pendulum recently. Well, until Brett poured sand in my garri (that's a Nigerian expression that's the equivalent of slipping pebbles into your rice) and got on me about the timing.

Well, will continue to work on it. But here are my latest videos. MY challenge now once I refine my motion and get the timing better is getting my side top motion consistently spinny - sometimes it feels more like a hit and isn't really deceptive.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Well, count me as one of the 1900s rated players who struggled with your serves... or at least attacking them.... and THAT was in September 2015 BEFORE your recent re-focus. Looking at our match vid, I think my landing rate attacking your serves, long or short was well under 20%... that is not very good and why I later varied my push return and played safer returns. If I did not have a strong serve game, I would have certainly lost 0-3 average score 11-6.

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Goof-off chopping bat
Gambler All Rosewood
Aurus Soft / Gambler GXL .6 sponge

Status - Out of Business Janitor/Babysitter

Here are a couple of matches that I would like some comments on, especially from Der Echte.

The more interesting one is a guy I have long done battle with. He is now using short pips medium pips instead of inverted medium pips, but his medium pips have always been the nightmare for me, but over a match, I tend to adjust. Red is short, black is medium. Watch what happens... He is 100 pts below me league wise, but I am overrated league wise and familiarity with his style puts his rating down in the league, IMO. He sometimes makes me think of switching to medium pips (LOL).



The match below is the kind of match that I would have struggled to win without improved serves and forehand, but improved serves especially. I now feel more relaxed playing these matches because I tend to get reliable popups vs pips players now, ever since I learned from some smart pip killer that long pips react to heavy backspin as well so my no-spin serves are now more threatening than they used to be. The player is about 200 pts below me league wise but I am probably slightly overrated league wise.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

I took quick look at game 1 and how you played vs this guy is what you must do... Deceptive varied serves and effective attack, spin heavy given the chance, play deep when not, avoid getting into bang bang exchanges, open heavy and drive hard the block, confuse him on serve. DO NOT receive serves passively, this guy eats you alive when you do that. When you finally made a better quality push he gave you chances to attack or pissed away a point or two.

There are several older Chinese gents with inverted or inverted/anti or just old rubbers who are simply OUTSTANDING if you keep looping at the high speed, they block forever and run you ragged and not miss, but when you change pace and spin and serve deceptively, they crumble. Many of these gents will rip off you head and do their business down your neck if you give it to them an inch over net height and never miss. However, if you keep them guessing and aggressively receive their serves, by game 3, they are just checking the block.

Game two vs Lui you did the right things to create your finishing chances and missed a LOT of them. You did not get down low enough on those and the few you made, especially that spectacular BH heavy topspin that stunned Lui, you managed to get down and on time. You just made too many mistakes on your finishing chances to have a chance to stay in that game.

It is obvious that you feel a lot better making both heavy spin and no spin on serves. I have always advocated serving heavy underspin right at teh pips early to establish your underspin is heavy, so when you take away spin it is effective, often enough for misses or much easier chances. It is pretty much the same concept I used when we last played.

Game three you varied attacking spin and got two direct points in a row from fake topspins. Your openers landed higher percentage. Did you (I bet you did) notice in game three, you got an attacking chance on just about EVERY serve you did? Easy, clear cut chances to attack,not difficult balls that were 2 mm halflong, but high enough long enough slow enough returns to time your attack. Your semi aggressive controlled returns and your effective serve/attack game put so much pressure on him to do something different, he went for too much on serves and MISSED TWO serves! That is a good sign of how your serve/attack applies pressure to an opponent and you already knew that before I met you online or in person. The BH serve you do at 7:00 is something I do once or twice a game to get a ball to my BH to attack strongly as a surprise, good stuff.

You do the stuff you did and execute well, like you did on games 1 and 3, then you handle this kind of player easy and demoralize them. Amazing what some variation and a little controlled aggression on return does for you. So what if you missed a few attacking chances on your setups... you gotta setup and finish chances vs that kind of player, they will simply keep it on table until you miss or crush the daylights outta you pick hitting vs a weak or high ball, they can wait if you do not apply pressure on serve or return.

A few things were heavy in play in your lost points and game. A little miss here and there on fast openers. Some power shots you did not get down low enough. A couple balls to your middle you did not step around and try to hit them anyway. YOu lost way too many points when he blocked and you failed to finish. Why? Many of these, you put SO MUCH into your fast opener AND you were not low enough, you had to take a step back after the shot to get your balance. THEN, he blocked these with a soft hand, so they did not rebound very far as you thought. You were out of position to attack all of those blocks and you lost the point in every case. Making a conscious decision to take even a half step back to the table after your strong opener would have won you the game and match right there, despite all the other mistakes. He killed you with soft blocks that game and he knew it.

Maybe you did not like playing on the camera side where the wall was 1.5 meters from the table, I don't know, you looked really tentative to step around and finish like you would from the other side.

Game 5 went like game 4 but not as bad, you did enough stuff right. I think your net and out three missed points clipping the net all you had to do was play a little safer heavier higher. I think it goes back to doing the things that won you success - varied serve bith heavy and light/knuckle varied placements mild aggressive return and 4th ball opening heavy, and avoiding going for too much too fast.

I think you have the stuff to easily defeat this player 3-1 or 3-0 on average, but I see and I get it, this guy entices you to go for it all on openers and unless you land 80% of them, you play right into his hands.

I win vs this type at our club (there must be 6 or so O50 Chinese gents at NOVATTC who play like your LUI friend) by sticking to the above and not getting passive, but staying in control and ALWAYS going for HEAVY topspin openers, unless there is a clear cut chance on a high ball and it makes more sense to step in and smash high balls.

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Goof-off chopping bat
Gambler All Rosewood
Aurus Soft / Gambler GXL .6 sponge

Status - Out of Business Janitor/Babysitter

Did Merchandandi have OX LP on hiz BH? Looked like it and it seemed like he was a little awkward for you and/or you felt safe and took your time choosing when/how to attack.

I think this player was lower level than you. You took too many shots sometimes to pick your attack and when he made strong FH attacks on balls you fed hiz FH, it REALLY made you reluctant to be aggressive and the longer the bumping back and forth goes, the less landing percentage you will have on your attack.

At the end of the day, you did what you had to do to win and moot point(s). If you face a player like this who is anywhere near your playing level AND you play like you did, that player will eat you up in points unless you take charge a little earlier.

You already know even vs an OX LP player variation between heavy and light and differing angles, depths and breaks is a golden chance.

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Goof-off chopping bat
Gambler All Rosewood
Aurus Soft / Gambler GXL .6 sponge

Status - Out of Business Janitor/Babysitter

Thanks, Der_Echte. Did you notice that Liu twiddled to the MP in the games I struggled? I will try a more consistent heavy topspin strategy when I play him next. Win or lose, these are league matches and I learn nothing playing him the same way over and over. He hits pretty well though, better than mist players like him.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Players at his level (He looks 1800s somewhere) who play his style close to the table and block with firm or loose hand can do so forever if the loop or drive is the same. They can and WILL defeat players higher level than them who insist on trying to overpower them time and time again, that plays right into their hands. When 2000+ players keep doing that, he doesn't take much risk and is consistent and applies all the time and placement pressure without any risk to him.

Deceptive serves and a consistent strong attack or heavy spin and strong follow attack give you almost a 2 point average or at least two points when you need them and when you get one of his serve points, you are cooking.

The other big key on attack is being HEAVY for most lower returns you get, land them deep and also varied.

A huge key (that you already get and are openly discussing on the forum) is handling the serve in a way that...

1) you do not miss
2) you do not give opponent an attacking chance
3) you get back a ball to attack
4) you attack and take over the point either with a winner away from him or a heavy ball that wins the point or leads to it on the next ball

For the most part, your service receive achieved your objectives, (at least it got you to #4 to have a good fighting fair chance to take over and win) but your choice of finishing or pressure shot, you not being low enough or on time, or your bad balance on shots at him he soft blocked killed you in a lot of points. I do not believe him simply twiddling to block or cut the ball hurt you. On the few balls he attacked and had nearly 100% landing rate, he coulda hit it with a clipboard and won the point.

The games you won and did all 4 well, you can see you were better positioned, better balanced, more confident, made better choices and landed more of them, and the serves were better and applied pressure on him. Those games he stayed in the game to fight, but he knew those games were over by the time you had 6 points. You have the stuff (knowledge of tactics and the means to setup and finish) to defeat him like clockwork 3-1 or 3-0.

If his twiddle on some of your controlled serve returns troubled you, then getting down a little more, waiting for the ball, and opening heavier and slower will get you there. you could also consider a soft hand impacted hookshot on those few shots he fast returned to your middle or close to your middle a tad to FH side.

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Goof-off chopping bat
Gambler All Rosewood
Aurus Soft / Gambler GXL .6 sponge

Status - Out of Business Janitor/Babysitter

For the benefit of some other forum members, they might wonder why LUI always serves long and deep. He WANTS an attack, cause he knows most players will have trouble reading exactly where he will go with the serve and make error after error attacking, and the few they land he knows he can block them for the most part. When opponent plays safer, he moves in to pick hit. That can get scary. an old dude serves long balls that SHOULD be your point with a fast attack, but you end up losing all those points and when you play safe, he is hiding behind the door with a baseball bat ready to swing at you and knock you smooth out. It is a form of shock and awe in live play.

Next Level did a GREAT job not falling into the trap. That takes focus, it is SO EASY to lose it and go hog-wild trying to crush kill those long serves when the ball is coming at you fast and it is not exactly where you think it is, too late then. Next Level one-upped LUI by taking away his attack on a lot of his returns.

That is a good stage to advance to and it gives NL a lot more chance to take over. That is seemingly a hidden part of Table Tennis in many players' efforts to improve. NL is doing it right by trying (and succeeding) to improve in that department.

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Goof-off chopping bat
Gambler All Rosewood
Aurus Soft / Gambler GXL .6 sponge

Status - Out of Business Janitor/Babysitter

Der Echte, you really eat these guys up. Liu has been solid 1950-2050 for a year now. I get your point though - play him the right way and his level will drop.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Maybe not his level drops, but the number of points he gets drops if you do the right things vs this type. They win their points only in a few ways and you have many ways to win a point vs this style. Players of his style (close to table off the bounce fast and soft blockers who can FH crush kill pick hit on FH and got a tricky long serve) REGARDLESS of what surface they use... they all are VERY STRONG vs macho attacking hotshot loopers who insist on using the same tactics and shot that obviously are not getting the job done. This close to table C-pen player often destroy loopers who are 100 or more points higher rated, sometimes the score isn't even close.

Sure, I do well vs that type, but not so well vs some other styles or shots/tactics.

The general formula vs this strong blocking type is to...

Have a great varied sere game first showing heavy underspin then pulling out the carpet on both the depth AND the spin - that gives you the easy chances to strongly attack - often with a skull-drag smash vs that type that takes the air outta hiz sails. You did that GREAT in games 1 and 3 and it made life so much easier for you

Make first attack extreme max heavy spin deep (unless ball is high enough to smash or loopkill) He will block it out or off his finger. If he keeps it on table, you move in and smash the soft block - that is all he is gunna do to it to stay alive in the point. You did that several times, especially with some BH openers and it surprised him, even if he knows your game. THIS is the focus of your thread and have already seen what improving on the serve does for you (and also the receive I cover later)

AVOID making first attack a loopdrive. This kind is SO GOOD at blocking those and will put you under heavy pressure to continue the attack. if you bump it back, they will smash it for a winner and you lose momentum and confidence. If the angle is there to hit strongly away from him, take the shot, it is worth the reward if you can land the shot over 50%, it isn't gunna come back. Sometimes you have to do a few of these as your first shot so you are not giving him the same slow spin same speed ball all the time, just to keep that shot's effectiveness. You lost a number of points doing this. I didn't calculate a stat of percentages, but I would wager your percentage of won points when you made such a shot as your first shot was not over 50%

DO NOT go apeshyt attacking the long serves strongly with a loopdrive. This kind serves long and the automatic response it to strongly attack, but the ball will not be where you think it is and if your mind is dead-set on crushing that easy looking long ball, you are you gunna miss a LOT more than you make, and even when you make it, there is a good chance it is comin' a smokin' back, so why give away a pile of free points?

Return the long unpredictable serve with a semi-aggressive, but kinda safe shot off the bounce or on the rise. it takes away time, they are expecting you to wait for ball and push or misread it and give away a smash. you are wrecking their intent and timing by doing that return, whether it is a heavy spin, a light spin or a no-spin. This is REAL BIG-TIME IMPORTANT to do well, as a player can piss a buckfull of points away in a hurry by being too aggressive the wrong way. You made this thread to address this and you already get how important it is..AND you have demonstrated a LOT of improvement in this area already. Like you frequently stress with others, this is an under-appreciated and under-trained aspect of the game for many players at our level

Sometimes make a very light topspin on a slow ball that looks like your heavy spin openers and heavy spin rally shot. This keeps the effectiveness of your heavy spin opener and creates opportunities to hit hard and away when it is there. I saw several points where you did this and he wasn't even close to getting the ball over the net

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Goof-off chopping bat
Gambler All Rosewood
Aurus Soft / Gambler GXL .6 sponge

Status - Out of Business Janitor/Babysitter

I laugh when I hear the standard "You GOTTA strongly loop the long serve or he will kill you."

LUI is a great example of a player whose long serve will give him more points than his short serves. Players of his type do a very good job of misdirecting with their arm and body where the serve will go. Often, you guessed wrong on where the serve is going and if you were dead-set on attacking, you gave away a point by attacking or gave away a smash by a tentative return.

The kind of controlled semi-aggressive off bounce or on the rise return kept reasonably low or to an unexpected or "Good" area is the way to avoid giving up points and giving yourself a much better chance to take control of the point and win it.

Next Level is showing a great awareness of this and an even better determination to do effective things to improve it.

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Goof-off chopping bat
Gambler All Rosewood
Aurus Soft / Gambler GXL .6 sponge

Status - Out of Business Janitor/Babysitter

Since I have spoken about him, here is the top junior at my club. He won the first game (not recorded) of this match 11-9, and then got subjected to a hail of 2600+ attacks. At this time, he was formally rated 2100+ but he was already beating 2300+ players in leagues - he just didn't play anyone where who could validate that, though his latest exploits at recent tournaments will reflect that when they come in.

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Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Yeah, he's seriously outgunned, but he is showing he isn't chump change.

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Goof-off chopping bat
Gambler All Rosewood
Aurus Soft / Gambler GXL .6 sponge

Status - Out of Business Janitor/Babysitter