OOAK Table Tennis Forum

I can't imagine how difficult it must be to loop random levels of backspin against a robot. I'm glad my crappy robot doesn't even have this ability, so I don't have to embarrass myself. Try not to get too frustrated.

Hey BRS, which robot do you have? What do you think of it?

I've got an older Newgy and your style of robot is pretty interesting to me. Question 1 tho: how does it handle the 40+ ball?

What he will find is that no matter how badly he loops in that drill, as long as he can loop each individual spin competently, his ability to adjust to each of the individual (back)spins separately will be much higher and that is what you need in matches. In practice, if you want things to translate to matches, you have to force the brain to read and adjust with demands similar to matches. If not, the time it takes practice to become a reliable match skill is much longer. Doing well in rote (also known as block drills) is more misleading than doing passably in random drills. This is why we know the beautiful technicians with bad match results who lose to the ugly technical players with far more experience reading the ball and applying ugly technique. Of course, beautiful technique with experience reading the ball when applying that technique is the ideal.

Unfortunately, without a good coach to talk students through this kind of frustration, many students go back to their rote drills rather than accept the failure rate inherent in random drills (once one has good technique).

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

I like the idea of random spin drills from a robot but against someone else pushing I tend to get a feel for the amount of spin that's coming. From a robot I'd assume all you get is the ball and the bounce on the table.

Is that enough to be useful? Also can you say just how much of a spin range there will be? Dead ball to max robot spin would be too much and unrealistic.

He sets up the spins and the order. IT's not 100% random in this case. And as long as he is not rushing the robot feed, he has time to look at the bounce flight and estimate the spin.

You are right that multiball or another person feeding is better. That said, it is useful as long as you are just trying to read the ball and do your stroke for a short high arcing loop as opposed to trying hard and tensely to loop. Missing is not a big deal.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Getting frustrated is a big issue when training with a robot. When I had a human training partner I really never got upset even when I completely failed to do something, because it was still fun. But practicing alone it's harder, especially for me practicing serves. I get aggravated to a degree where I'm not really learning anything.

Brett recommended a book called Zen in the Martial Arts, which is excellent. It's short, not a bad thing. If you know a lot about zen it certainly won't be new to you, but as applied to practice it's extremely relevant. When I can keep to that kind of observing without judging and getting angry I learn a lot more about what is really going on.

_________________
Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono

It's a Butterfly amicus pro. I'm on my fourth robot and this one is the best so far. But in general robots are lousy and you are much better off with a multiball feeder/blocker. However the robot is always here and never too busy to practice so I'm very lucky to have it.

I was already using 40+ when I got this robot, so I've never put a celluloid ball in it.

_________________
Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono

I did some BH drill today, keeping the random order but turning off the random location. That was better, but I realized after I stopped recording that what really helps with consistency is not to rise up during the shot. There is no need to do that, and it seemed to be easier to control the ball and contact with more spin than speed if I stayed as still as possible. That's a really obvious thing and I've been told it before probably more than once. Brett constantly talks about keeping your head level in the LTT series. But I never really felt it during a drill before now.

But I didn't record that bit, so instead today I have the same drill on the FH. Again I took out the random placement but left the random spin between -3,-2, -1, & +2. I have some foam targets on the table that you can't see. One wide off the opponent's FH side about a foot in from the endline, one at the elbow-ish, and one down their BH sideline. So I tried to alternate sides, which generated some flaky strokes trying to go down the line when I didn't get my hips or shoulders turned. I can do it just breaking my wrist, but I doubt that would work in a match when the location really would be random and I'd be moving.

Anyway, here is that drill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyQn0M2WxDg


Going cross-court I was happy with a lot of the balls even though I thought the swings were bad -- too vertical and up the back, letting the ball drop too much. But that seems to produce the desired result.

_________________
Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono

You are on the right track, even though I think some things about the actual shot form can be refined.

Taking the ball slightly at the top or after the top allows you to play more upward and is correct for controlled and increased spin. That said, your backswing does not have to be as low as it looks - you drop your shoulder too much rather than simply straightening the arm and doing the backswing. In general, where you want to end up is that your stroke on each ball should be largely similar with the only difference being the size of the backswing and possibly follow through trajectory. It looks like you are almost there - you just need to make the backswing more consistently horizontal and rotational. The contact point will be the same but with subtle variations. Straightening the arm will give you the height below the ball that you need - it doesn't come from getting excessively low. You are shorter than I am and with knees bent, you should be low enough!

While Brett is playing a drive stroke here, you can see where Brett's leverage comes from in the early part of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22F2hRS2ZiA

Resist the urge to swing hard at the topspin ball - keep the drill discipline. Eventually, you are going to have to learn to counterloop and this is just a lower level of spin - start using something like the counterloop stroke that Brett displayed in ETTS 01. Or the one that William uses to get outward curl (not the grip but a similar contact point and swing speed).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YIiw08Pw2E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCUTgMWiykA

Your touch is getting better and this is good progress.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

I'll keep in mind about the shoulders staying level and try to just let the arm straighten down.

On the +2 ball it gets on me in half the time of the others, so I need to either shorten the swing or swing harder/faster. I will try to relax more and use a shorter swing.

_________________
Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono

Yes, you are going to use a shorter swing and it will get on you. That's the beauty of starting your swing at the appropriate time because you will do a shorter swing.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

No club play today because of a nail in a tire. At least it went flat at home overnight and not on the highway.

I tried to practice a few minutes of serves doing the shadow, then serve, then serve and recover. But I couldn't stay calm when my serves were so random. I ended up stomping three poly balls in under ten minutes, and I couldn't afford to go on any longer at that $20/hr rate, so I never got to the serve and recover part.

It was discouraging. I'll try again tomorrow, and evaluate after I finish this first 20-hour training cycle whether I have learned anything or not. I have still only done two hours, as today counts zero.

_________________
Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono

Do the serving before the shadow. Try to get the serve right. You may consider going back to fundamentals and revisiting your floor serve with a slight shoulder turn.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Second iteration of the BH vs variable spin. It was a little better, and I didn't bob up and down as much. But considering the ball is on constant placement there should be no meed to move at all. I tried to get two of the three targets in frame, the other is down the FH line. The one at 4:58 is close to what I am trying for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-OUYOW0JVA


And I did 30 minutes on serve. Half was floor serves and then at the table. Following NL's advice I didn't try to hit good serves, just add a little shoulder rotation and recovery to my crap spinless underspin serve. It feels and looks off balance and awkward. Thinking about two things at once seems to be too much for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVvYB0msMns

_________________
Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono

You are practicing something I have never worked on (recovery) so I feel your frustration.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus