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PostPosted: 01 Dec 2015, 00:15 
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Now that I have a tournament break for a few months, with the exception of the Capital Area league in January or February, I have a chance to do some experimenting. Full disclosure, I've been playing with a double inverted chopping setup for a few months part-time. (hence all of my questions on the board about inverted chopping rubbers etc). I just have never been confident enough in the style to enter a rated competition just yet.

I have found through using my other setups that I chop best with spinny inverted rubbers with some catapult to them especially on the FH. I'm really able to match the spin of my opponents much better, even when compared to tacky thin rubbers like Tack Chop and TSP Triple Spin.

I have also found that I do better with some sponge, 1.8mm or more. So, I've let go of the idea that I will find a thin inverted rubber for this, because (as evidenced by my performance 2 tournaments ago) I really don't have the technique for looping with thin inverted. I couldn't land more than 1 of 10 attacks due to the bottoming out of the rubber. It was terrible like playing hard-bat, and I just don't have the patience for that rubbish. I'm not the most attack-oriented chopper around, but most of my attacks were successful in my last tournament with my thicker rubber.

So...since my last tournament, I've been playing with the X2 inverted setup exclusively. I've been inspired by Spinlord Sponsored Nikolay Telnoy from the Ukraine (Started a video thread of him here: viewtopic.php?f=35&p=302716 )

His style is so smooth and aesthetically pleasing to watch IMO. His technique and footwork are brilliant. Doesn't ever look hurried or out of breath. This new blog will be about my pursuit of trying to emulate that style of play. Here I will study his and other double inverted choppers/pushers in an attempt to better understand the style. I will attempt to break down their technique and hopefully sone of you more learned choppers can give us your observations as well.
Here is a video of him for convenience:

Of course, in the background I will track my personal progress in pursuing this style complete with video. I'm sure my level will take a serious it, but that's to be expected when going from LP to inverted, especially in the short game. I will miss being able to do flat pushes and lifting underspin off serves. Another challenge is that serve return technique on the backhand is completely different now that I'm playing with inverted. I will have to revisit how I read spin and match it with inverted because I have definitely developed a LP strategy here.

So far I have managed to continue to match my current LP level, and consistently beating the people I'm supposed to beat, but also consistently losing to people above my rating. With Long Pips, I often beat people I had no business beating and losing to people I had no business losing to. The initial first few weeks have been a mixed bag but mostly positive. I was worried I was going to take a huge drop in league ratings...this has not been the case.

Thus, for now, I shall sunset my very schizophrenic first blog (The Weekly Chop) in favor of this one, at least for as long as I pursue this style. Who knows, could be a complete disaster or a new beginning. More to come. :D
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EDIT: Below I decided to link to my youtube playlist of all his video:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... TwSG8yfDBa

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Last edited by Japsican on 05 Jan 2016, 01:11, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: 01 Dec 2015, 09:11 
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Nice, he certainly has a nice style to try and imitate! :rock:

You certainly got me with the title. :? :-o :lol:

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PostPosted: 02 Dec 2015, 11:59 
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haggisv wrote:
Nice, he certainly has a nice style to try and imitate! :rock:

You certainly got me with the title. :? :-o :lol:

Thanks! I just love his style...so fluid. I thought people might find the title funny...kind of like "Being John Malkovich" or "Searching for Bobby Fischer." :lol:

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PostPosted: 02 Dec 2015, 12:27 
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So, the first few competitive rounds of league with the new setup has gone pretty well. I'm still playing at close to the level I was with LPs, which is surprising. I won all of my league matches, except one vs. someone who is about 1600, and kind of unorthodox. He plays like the softest, flattest blocker you've ever seen, with good touch vs. hard top, and short pushes everything. I lose to him with or without LPs. Playing him is like chewing tinfoil....but far less pleasant.

So how are things going? Swimmingly I'd say. But there are some key differences between inverted chopping and LP chopping. So far, here are my observations, cockeyed as they may be:

Pros:
I have done much better with the service return than I expected, and surprisingly serve returns garner about the same amount mistakes. I am happy to have more control over the spin of the return, more than I am nervous about being subject to the spin of the serve. I also seem to handle no spin serves much better, something to be expected I suppose, and I certainly attack serves way more consistently now.

With the element of twiddling out of the equation, I'm less tempted to make silly mistakes due to the flipping. The game is simplified.

Cons:
Obviously there is no deception. Pushes with LP vs. pushes from inverted gets you a lot of errors and pop ups. Fewer cheap points. Chops vs. sidespin is also a challenge, particularly at the serve when the side is at it's trickiest. It's easy to forget how much the LPs mask in terms of how much attention must be paid to these types of balls. I've been lazy in reading these..clearly.

I am really enjoying revisiting basics and fundamentals, while not really suffering as big of a drop as I anticipated. Whether I choose to stick to this experiment or not, I can tell this is definitely going to help me in the long run. But I HAVE to get more consistent at attacking...and I believe I am. My coach always tells me..."You're a 1800 level chopper, but a 1200 level attacker. This is your problem." I know dude...I know... I've been working on this for what seems like forever.

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for Telnoy
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2015, 15:18 
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Japsican wrote:
Quote:
My coach always tells me..."You're a 1800 level chopper, but a 1200 level attacker. This is your problem."


You (and your coach evidently) say this like it is a bad thing. What you concentrate on is a choice. Similarly you choose not to be an out-and-out attacker. Presumably, what you want is to have the ability to pick hit easier balls to keep the opponent guessing at least a little bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for Telnoy
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2015, 23:22 
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Retriever wrote:
Japsican wrote:
Quote:
My coach always tells me..."You're a 1800 level chopper, but a 1200 level attacker. This is your problem."


You (and your coach evidently) say this like it is a bad thing. What you concentrate on is a choice. Similarly you choose not to be an out-and-out attacker. Presumably, what you want is to have the ability to pick hit easier balls to keep the opponent guessing at least a little bit.

Thank you retriever, and very true. But what he and I are talking about ARE pick hits! :oops: As seldom as I attack, when I do get a stray ball I am astonishingly inconsistent. Much better now that I'm back to my thicker forehand rubber. But a "Pick hit" by definition should be a ball you can attack and land with near 100% accuracy. I'm probably more like 60-70% with such balls which is unacceptable. I'm also not recognizing stray balls accurately (or in time) to make a high percentage attack and often push or chop them when I should be hitting. It's my forehand attack that brings my percentage way down, my backhand loop and drive is pretty good...but I can't always run around my forehand (and shouldn't) to use it.

This is something I've been working on in multiball/single ball with various people, and I'm fine in practice. Land probably about 90% of the time. But in game situation, weither psychological or otherwise, my results are not the same, and I need to somehow connect the two. Coaches think it's tension which points to psychology more than muscle memory...something that is harder to practice and change. Any suggestions there?

EDIT: trust me, I am on board with not seeing classic Defense and fewer attacks as a bad thing btw...I'm with you there.

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for Telnoy
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2015, 13:18 
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There are lots of advantages to the x2 inverted chopping setup, and of course, many disadvantages as well.

One problem I’m having with technique is chopping very spinny balls on the backhand side, particularly when the ball comes towards the front of my body. It’s easier to match the spin of the ball when it’s out towards the side of my body, and it’s easy to adjust the angle of the racket to keep the ball low. But the closer into my body the ball gets, the harder it is to create racket speed on the chop due to awkward body mechanics. What ends up happening is that I’m getting pop-ups for those balls, and while I luck out on a netted ball some of the time, I can’t always bank on it.

In my studying of Mr. Telnoy I am struck by a few things. First, it doesn’t really seem like his racket speed is all that fast. Sure, faster than one needs to chop with LPs, but not as fast as I would expect when chopping very spinny balls. I noticed the same thing with Johanna Parker. LPs give you some fudge-factor on chops and your racket speed doesn’t need to be as precise. And when I think about how I chop on the FH side, I don’t always need to match the speed of the ball, instead adjusting racket angle and letting the sponge, surface grip, and throw angle “grab” the ball and send the ball with huge amounts of spin. This was counter-intuitive to me at first, because I thought I’d have to close the racket to compensate for the grip of the inverted rubber. I don’t know why I felt that way given that I chop just fine on the FH with a more open bat.

So why is my FH chop so much better than my BH chop with inverted?
On the forehand vs. spinny loops, what I tend to do is open (open means bringing up the bottom edge of the bat) the bat so it is more horizontal and flat (Facing the sky more) and increase racket speed. Because the inverted is higher throw than LP, the ball darts off the rubber at a sharper angle when chopping faster and by nature of the throw angle the trajectory is lower. This is how I manage the incoming topspin on my FH chops. Faster chop = slightly more open (bottom edge forward towards opponent). Slower chop = slightly more closed (bottom edge points more towards floor). Chopping slow and closing the bat isn’t the best approach (high trajectory). For closed bats, you need very high racket speed! Chopping slow and opening the bat is even worse (Pop up!). There is a “feeling” of angle and speed with inverted chopping that occurs, similar to looping, and you have to adjust to the increased throw at increased bat speeds.

At the same time using the throw angle to manage heavy spin requires finesse. I feel like if you close the blade on chops too much, the sponge/grip/throw doesn’t do enough work and it’s all about your bat speed. But if you open the blade up too much you have so much angle that there is not enough rubber contact to help you absorb the incoming speed and spin. Essentially, there is a sweet spot that must be understood and "felt" (much like a loop I reckon).

Here are a set of pics, of Telnoy chopping on the BH. One thing I noticed is that he tends to take BH chops more toward the front of his body, choosing to let his footwork get him into position to take the ball in that area. I guess he feels more in control of the chop that way, or maybe the inverted rubber encourages that type of stroke. The area in front of my body is exactly where I seem to have difficulty vs heavy spin loops. So what gives here? Is he wristy?

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for Telnoy
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2015, 06:27 
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What you say about bat angle and possibly swing angle is about right. I too am a double inverted defender, albeit not a dedicated chopper. My typical chop has the bat angle (and swing angle) more open than what I have been taught that a chopper should have - that the bat should be almost perpendicular to the table surface, and the chop almost straight down. When I get caught out like you say, I do what is almost something like a very late block - not a chop. Of course if one has very good anticipation, reflexes and footwork then this won't happen :) :)

About your pick hitting being only 60-70%, if you get up to 80-90% you may find yourself being schooled back to the light side. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for Telnoy
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2015, 23:45 
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Retriever wrote:
What you say about bat angle and possibly swing angle is about right. I too am a double inverted defender, albeit not a dedicated chopper. My typical chop has the bat angle (and swing angle) more open than what I have been taught that a chopper should have - that the bat should be almost perpendicular to the table surface, and the chop almost straight down. When I get caught out like you say, I do what is almost something like a very late block - not a chop. Of course if one has very good anticipation, reflexes and footwork then this won't happen :) :)

About your pick hitting being only 60-70%, if you get up to 80-90% you may find yourself being schooled back to the light side. :)

Back to the light side? Double inverted IS the light side.

Last night I played again with the setup, and something strange happened. My practice (loop vs. chop, rally, etc) was less successful and consistent, however my actual game results were better than with LP. I had big trouble chopping balls vs. a strange stroked attacker who sidespins (not on purpose) all of his balls to my backhand. This caused me to miscalculate the trajectory of my chops every time. The LPs largely take care of this for you and while I've gotten used to this without thinking on the FH, I'm having to devote lots of mental energy to this. Strangely, he rarely managed to get that sidespin drive (not a loop) to my BH during games because if my third ball was a chop, he could never return it. Off serve returns I pushed most serves (he's not tricky at all) and I managed to get him to 3rd ball loop which almost always had very little to no sidespin.

But I know that some opponents will sidepin intentionally, and that I'm going to really have to think about that during my BH chops. Multiball.

I also got a chance to practice vs. pushblocker, penhold, around 1870 who I played very well against (with LPs) in my last tournament, but ultimately lost to. I have trouble vs. pushblockers (who doesn't) and she was no exception. I tried every trick in the book and couldn't figure her out. I especially could not figure her out as a double inverted player.

This is the type of match which makes me want to have special equipment for specific players. Bogey's 1mm Easy P was very effective at killing the spin vs. Pushblocker in their last tournament, because of the fact that he was able to kill spin off of every one of PBs serves. However, with this lady, she serves with LP most of the time so all i have to do is no spin ball it back to her, but for me that's very difficult with inverted.

What was interesting is that my style with her became more Retriever. I have a hard time chopping consistently vs. OX LPs, with the reduced spin. I net a lot of balls (who doesn't). It's almost as if my chops have to be directed more upwards, aimed towards the net, to get them to land. And because the pace is so slow and soft, I have to push harder, and often when I do so the chops sail long. It's maddening. So I adjusted and started to lob and fish instead, and that proved to be the most successful approach because she was inconsistent at hitting. I also started to serve high (I remembered the video of Cory Eider vs. Pushblocker where he did that and it was succesfull) and that seemed to get me a few points. However she was just consistent enough at hitting and short angles that she still beat me. It was a nice learning experience, and I had a lot of fun trying new things versus her. I really need to develop a strategy vs. her, and then practice execution because I think I'm going to see her quite a bit as she plays many of the same events I do.

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for Telnoy
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2015, 23:48 
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Retriever wrote:
When I get caught out like you say, I do what is almost something like a very late block - not a chop. Of course if one has very good anticipation, reflexes and footwork then this won't happen :) :)

Yes, the "slap block" as I call it. Happens inadvertently all of the time for me..and works as unintended variation because my opponents loop that thinking it's heavy under.

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for Telnoy
PostPosted: 05 Dec 2015, 01:29 
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There is a guy in my club who plays this style - he usually does it with oversized head balsa blades and a 729 FX rubber in 2.0 mm on both sides. Here is a match I played against him a while back. MY style of play doesn't let you see his full arsenal but maybe I can record him playing a lower rated player or a less heavy hitting player so you can see him deploy his full range of shots.


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 Post subject: Re: Searching for Telnoy
PostPosted: 05 Dec 2015, 02:16 
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NextLevel wrote:
MY style of play doesn't let you see his full arsenal but maybe I can record him playing a lower rated player or a less heavy hitting player so you can see him deploy his full range of shots.


You're a heavy hitter? Actually, now that you mention, I heard you like putting heavy topspin on the ball somewhere. :rofl:

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for Telnoy
PostPosted: 05 Dec 2015, 02:22 
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As for the video, Next, I noticed he does the thing I mentioned Telnoy and other inverted choppers do with their backhand, which is to sort of take the ball more toward their body vs. out to the side. He pushes more than chops in the video, mostly because you're pushing mostly or looping heavy balls that he doesn't get to (as you said he has more in his arsenal). But I can tell from the pushing form on the BH that he most likely chops like that as well. The few times he does chop on the backhand confirms this.

BTW, the lobs vs. slams at 22:31 were pretty bad ass! He got you there. ;)

What's his level?

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for Telnoy
PostPosted: 05 Dec 2015, 03:13 
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Japsican wrote:
As for the video, Next, I noticed he does the thing I mentioned Telnoy and other inverted choppers do with their backhand, which is to sort of take the ball more toward their body vs. out to the side. He pushes more than chops in the video, mostly because you're pushing mostly or looping heavy balls that he doesn't get to (as you said he has more in his arsenal). But I can tell from the pushing form on the BH that he most likely chops like that as well. The few times he does chop on the backhand confirms this.

BTW, the lobs vs. slams at 22:31 were pretty bad ass! He got you there. ;)

What's his level?


About 2000. He broke 2000 a few times in the 1990s before retiring. He can still beat 2000 level players depending on the style matchup, and he would probably be 2000 if he played tournaments. The reason I play him well is partly because of my backhand and my knowledge of his game (my coach used to beat him all the time and all my coach's students end up beating him consistently as we improve if we do certain things). He would definitely beat most of the juniors playing today who are USATT 2000.

He mixes up no-spin and chop really well and often floats the ball on many of his shots, so players who don't loop the ball and can't adjust their timing and spin level struggle mightily with his game as they tend to loop balls into the net or off the table. He loops more than he usually does against me because he knows that I don't miss my opening as much as other players will if given the chance and I push consistently enough to be selective against him. He also has fewer opportunities to chop because I drive through high chopped balls with less spin and can smash his chop both cross court and down the line.

And yes, the fact that we do not play in a club that supports lobbing hurts his level a little. But I have gotten much better about those points - he used to win them at a 90% rate at one time and now, if he is luck enough to get into them, his rate is closer to 30%, though the 30% look good so they tend to stick in the minds of people who watch.

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for Telnoy
PostPosted: 05 Dec 2015, 03:34 
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NextLevel wrote:
About 2000. He broke 2000 a few times in the 1990s before retiring. He can still beat 2000 level players depending on the style matchup, and he would probably be 2000 if he played tournaments. The reason I play him well is partly because of my backhand and my knowledge of his game (my coach used to beat him all the time and all my coach's students end up beating him consistently as we improve if we do certain things). He would definitely beat most of the juniors playing today who are USATT 2000.

He mixes up no-spin and chop really well and often floats the ball on many of his shots, so players who don't loop the ball and can't adjust their timing and spin level struggle mightily with his game as they tend to loop balls into the net or off the table. He loops more than he usually does against me because he knows that I don't miss my opening as much as other players will if given the chance and I push consistently enough to be selective against him. He also has fewer opportunities to chop because I drive through high chopped balls with less spin and can smash his chop both cross court and down the line.

And yes, the fact that we do not play in a club that supports lobbing hurts his level a little. But I have gotten much better about those points - he used to win them at a 90% rate at one time and now, if he is luck enough to get into them, his rate is closer to 30%, though the 30% look good so they tend to stick in the minds of people who watch.


Well, he's certainly an interesting watch. Seems real confident in pushes but less so on chops, but that could be mostly due to your herculean topspin...haha. Seriously tho your forehand looked great in this video as well.

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